V2 - Self-generation sound ability not works anymore ?

[valdaisky]

Hi, i install new M12 V2 version, and frankly was confused, the increase of level of VCA2 knob not produce any sound (while in V1 it produce sound without any keyboard action), and frankly my many ambient patches was made based on that effect.
So, its bug or what ? (Or it was bug in v1 ?)
As well - then what exactly does VCA2 knob now ?

[LBH]

It's true that there is a difference between the current and the previous Matrix Vs on this.

I'm not sure how the original hardware Matrix excactly worked.

The original hardware synth manual say this:
"As a rule-of-thumb, keep in mind that if both VCAs are set to 0 and no modulation
is used to control them, no sound will be heard from the MATRIX-12. On the other
hand, if both VCAs are set to any higher value than 0 - and if no modulation is
used -the sound of the Voices will always be heard even though no notes are
being played. This is due to the VCAs1 circuits being "open" by the various
Amount settings."

But i don't think it tell, if KEYBD allways is active. That could be the case, as voices are involved.
Would there be sound if turning on the keyboard and then select a sound with both VCAs open open, without pressing any notes? Does opening the 2 VCAs bypass the keyboard, but if so, then how to control the sound?


Also i'm not sure if also the previous Matrix V had an error on this point.

Arturias manual say this:
"Assuming no mods are active, if both VCAs are set to zero then no sound will be heard. But simply
raising their levels isn’t always a good idea: when the output is wide open and not being shaped in
some way, it means any note that has been played will come on and stay on."


And yes you did'nt need to play a note in the previous Matrix V. But if you did'nt trigger notes was'nt there only a very deep rumble, if you had'nt used the application but just opened it?


Anyway - If you in the current Matrix V use KEYBD (and some other modulators) as VCA modulator, then you'll get the effect. I think the current functionality perhaps will give better possibilities to work with two VCAs, as you can have both VCAs on a possitive value as a starting point, and thus they perhaps can work in a more flexible way. I have allways been a little annoyed that you could'nt do this. Having 2 VCAs in serie is about having flexibility. I have'nt thought about this and tested too much yet, so perhaps there are negative things in the current versions functionality.

Also you need to trigger a note to get sound, and thus you get sound when you just select a preset or step thru a preset. That can be a good thing too. And i assume, that's what you had to do in the original hardware Matrix. The differnce is perhaps, that you need to add a KEYBD modulator. I think that one also need to work alittle with this, to get it right, as i think there is a side effect if not. But that effect might be something extre. I'm not completely sure yet.


I'm interested in your thoughts about this.

EDIT: I do think the previous version of Matrix V perhaps was most correct (except perhaps the mentioned deep rumble), but perhaps the new version is better, even if you have to add KEYBD (and some other modulators) as VCA modulator? EDIT END

[valdaisky]

LBH Thank you for info, and interest about this. I will try to explain.

But if you did'nt trigger notes was'nt there only a very deep rumble, if you had'nt used the application but just opened it?

You right. My action was such that actually i trigged generators by short midi clip in DAW sequencer by short start of playback and stop then, and did it two-three times until coverage (re-start) all voices. Thus we had a some permanent harmonically texture, without any keyboard actions in further, and without playing sequencer, within the current "ambient" session.
It all may seem ridiculous, but that's the aesthetic side (although not quite perfect at start - as you can see) but nonetheless. This is partially kind of comes from a modular view of things, as you understood i think. We will deal with infinite texture, and without any of sequencer commands during no end. This is inspires in itself.

Now, about better or no (in V2) - well, after your info i figured out how achieve "effect", as well after some thoughts i agreed with you that whole concept become not a worse at least. (more controllable from start, it that you meant about rumble i guess) But what become worse - in v1 we had ready for use bodies library, we only needed increase vca2 level. Now need re-configure it every time after load each preset.

Also, some strange things: for example we set KEYB in destination VCA2 - ok, now it works. But audible level of vca2 knob not works incrementally during increasing now - it works like selector (on\off), what the reason ? (while in v1 the same config does incremental sounding change for that knob).

[LBH]

Hi valdaisky.

I think it's good to provide Arturia informations about functionality.

First let me say, that i do think Matrix V should work like the original hardware Matrix on this. Beside that i can see that extra options can be beneficial.
Sometimes the originals may not have a functionality suited to new production methods.

Also i actually don't know if the current behavior is intended. It can be a bug. The current behavior actually does look like a bug. Also because there are stange behaviors when setting levels and using both the VCAs levels and the VCAs mods levels.
BTW: KEYBD as mod does not give the same output and using an envelope. Using VELOCITY and be sure to reach full amount as modulator instead of KEYBD give higher output, when using this modulator methods as workarounds.

Also, some strange things: for example we set KEYB in destination VCA2 - ok, now it works. But audible level of vca2 knob not works incrementally during increasing now - it works like selector (on\off), what the reason ? (while in v1 the same config does incremental sounding change for that knob).

Yes that's true, except my VCA 2 does'nt work as a on/off either.
Depending on your VCA settings, then you can:
1. Use the VCA 1 level controls instead of VCA 2 or
2. Use the modulator amount you have assigned to VCA 2 or
3. Both.

But what become worse - in v1 we had ready for use bodies library, we only needed increase vca2 level. Now need re-configure it every time after load each preset.

Yes i understand this. But as i said, then there are reasons to not have it like this. I vote for being able to do both, if that's an option.
Did the original hardware synth make sound, when you changed presets, or did one need to trigger first? In both manuals it does sound like it did as they say "when no mods are added", but it's not completely clear to me. It could be that some kind of internal connection made it needed to trigger notes before there was sound, as that would be a way to control sound too. As you say, then you use a DAW to trigger notes to control the sound.

Anyway - i think there is a bug, and it could be interesting to know what Arturia have to say about the VCA behavior.

[valdaisky]

1. Use the VCA 1 level controls instead of VCA 2 or

Yes, i noticed that too.
 
Damn, it's really one of most puzzled instrument (structure) that i seen ever    lol,  where unclear what a bug and what was really planned to do.

About mesage to support (since i see they stopped appear here unfortunately) ok, i will do. And perhaps would be good if you do that too, i guess it can be better with your english.
Although it pleases that lately, support seems to have begun to take action, take jup8 for example, I want to believe that this was not a just temporary phenomenon.

[LBH]

I think Arturia understand you just as well as i think i do. Reporting here should be enough (and save time for Arturia support and thus money for Arturia), even if Arturia does'nt allways answer here. But contacting support may provide an answer of some kind for certain.


I would say the correct behavior is that you should not need to add a modulator for the VCA 2 to open it. So the current version have the bug, that turning up the VCA 2 level in it self does'nt open the gate, like it should.

If one should need to trigger a note/ notes before you hear sound when both VCA levels is positive, i don't know. But i would like to not have the deepest key/ note triggered, when you open the application and both VCAs is at positive levels. As using the "RESET" playmode does not cancel that note but other notes if you trigger yet another note, then i would say, that this "pre-triggered" note was a bug in the previous version. If i have to trigger many notes to get this note away, then i rather like to only need to trigger the keys/notes i desire only, and i wonder if this was'nt the original hardware behavior.

But the original hardware synths behavior is the behavior to have priority no matter what that behavior was/ is.

[Matt Arturia]

Hi,

We've received your ticket via support services and I think they already get back to you at time of writing. This is indeed a bug. It will be fixed on next M12 version.

Regards,

Matthieu

[valdaisky]

Hi Matthieu
Ok, thanks, that good, will wait.

[Matt Arturia]

Hi,

This should be fixed on today's update.

Matthieu

[LBH]

Thanks Matthieu.

I think this VCA feature work like the previous versions of Arturias Matrix V in todays update version 2.3.2.1889.
So there is now sound again when both VCAs is set to a positive level.

If playmodes like Reset worked for this, then that on all presets should kill all sound but from the notes that are being played, also when both VCA's are at a positive level.

It could be nice if all notes was reset when a new preset was selected. At least as a choice.

Does the Panic button work correct?
If the Panic button actually canceled all active notes also when using this VCA feature - and the button could be automated, then that also would be nice.

[valdaisky]

Hi guys, sorry for late reply (just i did not received to email any information\newsletter about plugin update, so, noticed it accidentally just now).

I tried new version - thank you, now increasing VCA2 level works in the same way as before, but what fun, again i found the same problem that was in M12 v1 related with non-sounding triangle wave during increase VCA2, about i wrote once here:
https://forum.arturia.com/index.php?topic=84396.0

It exactly the same issue.

[LBH]

I can confirm, that if you open the application and turn up both VCA's to a positive level, then you get no sound when using the triangle waveform. After you hit a key it work.
Actually i think this is the way it should work for all waveforms because you do not get the the low rumble, and it's much easier to control the sound, when it is like this. Perhaps it's not the way the original hardware Matrix 12 work, but perhaps that was a fault if not? Why not have it all like the triangle waveforms work now with this VCA feature?

[valdaisky]

I can confirm, that if you open the application and turn up both VCA's to a positive level, then you get no sound when using the triangle waveform. After you hit a key it work.
Actually i think this is the way it should work for all waveforms because you do not get the the low rumble, and it's much easier to control the sound, when it is like this. Perhaps it's not the way the original hardware Matrix 12 work, but perhaps that was a fault if not? Why not have it all like the triangle waveforms work now with this VCA feature?

LBH, well, if bypass my love to such permanent generativity (I really like this aesthetic, even by the sacrificing control), my priorities will be in similarity with the original, and since I don't know either - how it were, i give this decision to the authors.

[LBH]

my priorities will be in similarity with the original

I can agree with this valdaisky.
However - I do like to be able to have easy full control, even if it's should be an option apart from the original behavior.

[valdaisky]

my priorities will be in similarity with the original

I can agree with this valdaisky.
However - I do like to be able to have easy full control, even if it's should be an option apart from the original behavior.

In the end, it could be done in view of optional ability, which enabled by desire, something like checkbox in plugin config settings. And would be fine for all hehe.