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Author Topic: In what way will Origen be a total rip-off  (Read 10934 times)

m@l0cch10

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In what way will Origen be a total rip-off
« on: August 26, 2007, 06:37:09 am »
Can you tell me what security features will be installed to renser Origen useless?  Will you refuse to support it, as you have your other products?  What about the documentation?  What assurance can you provide that you will leave out information critical to the use of this exciting (and expensive) new product?  Also, will the level of support you provide be dependant on the season?  I noticed that because it is the summer, you've stated that you can't provide the level of support you usually provide.  What guarantee do I have that if I get this as a gift during the Christmas season and experience problems that you will ignore my requests for technical support for months on end (an important Arturia branding characteristic)?

I have to say that I was disappointed at the total reliability of the Nstive Instruments Kore midi controller (which has similar functionality to Origen in practicality).  Can you guarantee unreliable performance from Origen, as you have beenb able to do with your previous products?
m@l0cch10

Sweep

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In what way will Origen be a total rip-off
« Reply #1 on: August 26, 2007, 01:04:46 pm »
Ok, don't bother with it then, if you feel like that. It's your choice. No-one is forcing you to buy one. :)

If I'd taken that attitude and not bought the Arturia synths I did buy, I wouldn't have a fantastically flexible Mg modular, a MiniMg that does things my `real' Mg can't do, an ARP 2600 that's far more creative and beautiful-sounding than the `more accurate' Timewarp synth, or a CS80V that sounds brilliant and has great extra features like Multi-mode.

All these synths are brilliant, and I wouldn't be without them.

Origin has features I'd really like to explore, though unfortunately I can't afford one - yet, anyway. If I do, it'd be interesting to see if you can make music like the music I'll be making, with whatever you buy instead. If that happens I'll put the results on my download site, like I did with the MMV and 2600V, to show what these supposedly unuseable and unsupported instruments can really do.

Oh, by the way, it's `Origin,' not `Origen' like you've spelt it.  Origen was a theologian who castrated himself. Perhaps he would have denied himself a great synth as well?

m@l0cch10

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« Reply #2 on: August 26, 2007, 06:27:08 pm »
You're right that the synths are brilliant.  They are well designed, easy to understand and sound great.  Did you know that if you move a license from one Syncrosoft key to another it renders your software totally useless.

I write soundtrack music for videos.  I have a product due Monday.  To get my Prophet V and Brass output not to crackle so much I bought a new computer and needed to consolidate the licenses onto one key.  Most of the support pages on the Arturia site that refer to Syncrosoft say that you can do this (and why wouldn't you be able to?).

Brass, Prophet V and Jupiter 8 no longer work.  After digging deeper onto the site, I found out it is because you cannot move the licenses.  There is exactly one phrase on the site that describes this.

The client has already approved the soundtrack.  It is for a corporate video so the profit margins are tight.  I have looked all over town for a store with copies in stock (I would shell out the cash to get this out the door on time), but none of the stores have Brass or Prophet V in stock.

I am a professional who always makes his deadlines.  Always.  This product is not for professionals, as it is undependable.  I am guessing that Origin will also be undependable in some fundamental way.  In any case, I doubt I will find out.  I was excited at the prospect of this product, but now I am not.

Also, I own every Arturia soft synth.  I've been a huge proponent of their products, recommending them to other composers that have enjoyed my soundtracks on both commercial and non-commercial pieces.  This flaw, however, is a fundamental design flaw.
m@l0cch10

Sweep

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In what way will Origen be a total rip-off
« Reply #3 on: August 26, 2007, 09:08:14 pm »
Sorry to hear about your problems. Although I don't make music to deadlines, I've done other things to deadlines and I can appreciate what you're saying.

The golden rule, of course, is always have an alternative way of working, because something vital will always fail when you really need it. You're clearly an experienced professional so I feel sure you've got something to fall back on. Good luck with the deadline. I trust you'll make it somehow.

I haven't encountered the problem you've described - yet.:D  From the way you've said it, it sounds like Arturia hasn't been clear about that, and if so I can well appreciate your annoyance. But this is an inherent problem with software that needs to be designed to prevent piracy - all software, not just softsynths. I've seen people post to this site asking where they can download a manual, when it's obvious they've ripped the software from somewhere and they want another freebee at the expense of the people who've worked to provide the product they've stolen. (I've also seen legitimate requests for good reasons, BTW, so I'm not accusing anyone who's asked legitimately.) Protected software is a complete pain in the ass, but any company that doesn't protect itself is going to get ripped off massively, so it's a necessary evil. But yes, the company does need to be clear so legitimate users can use the product.

I'm currently looking at ways to protect my softsynth investments. I think that's essential - rather like buying vital spares for hardware synths. Basically it needs doing before problems arise, whether they're hardware problems or Microsoft's insistance that we have to use their latest pile of crap if we buy a new PC. Last minute computer changes invite problems. In saying this I sympathise with what you've described. I've had enough last-minute computer hassles to know how dangerous it is to make changes when time is pressing.

With new instruments there's always what Wendy Carlos calls a `shakedown period.'  I'd never hope to do more than the bare minimum with a new instrument because of that. I'd think the problems you've described with Brass and the Prophet come into that category. There's a sound problem that needs sorting, and it may take time. You need to rely on other stuff until the shakedown's had time to happen.

The same thing happened to me with my all-time favourite hardware synth, the Roland V-Synth XT. I wouldn't be without it and I use it extensively. But I had a very early one, and there was a problem with the patch memories. Basically they simply disappeared in large batches and left empty spaces where they'd been. This is a brilliant synth, but it wasn't one I could rely on at that point. If I'd relied on it for a deadline project I'd have been sunk - or rather, I'd have fallen back on something else.

(BTW For anyone thinking of buying a V-Synth XT, the problem seems to be resolved now. Feel free to PM me if you'd like to know what Roland did and what I did in the end.)

So yes, I do appreciate what you're feeling, and I hope what I said didn't sound simply dismissive. And Arturia may well be at fault if they haven't clarified the transfer issue. But it's in the nature of things to fail, especially in the early stages. The more vital a thing is, the more vital it is to have an alternative.

slammah2012

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Re: In what way will Origen be a total rip-off
« Reply #4 on: August 27, 2007, 09:36:00 am »
Quote from: "m@l0cch10"
Can you tell me what security features will be installed to renser Origen useless?  Will you refuse to support it, as you have your other products?  What about the documentation?  What assurance can you provide that you will leave out information critical to the use of this exciting (and expensive) new product?  Also, will the level of support you provide be dependant on the season?  I noticed that because it is the summer, you've stated that you can't provide the level of support you usually provide.  What guarantee do I have that if I get this as a gift during the Christmas season and experience problems that you will ignore my requests for technical support for months on end (an important Arturia branding characteristic)?

I have to say that I was disappointed at the total reliability of the Nstive Instruments Kore midi controller (which has similar functionality to Origen in practicality).  Can you guarantee unreliable performance from Origen, as you have beenb able to do with your previous products?


Firstly,get it right
 NI Kore is a Controller for a NI Computer Soft synth bundle and some third party software....
Arturia Origin is a Stand alone Synth with Audio outputs that needs no computer connection to operate....there is no third party drivers to have issues with the synth,...If your hosts are unable to work with usb, Contact them for USB support...as that is their issue...
USB connectivity allows you to use the Origin as External DSP for your Host(host permitting),and  as an interface to bring audio from its inputs to the computer.....It will drastically reduce your CPU on your Box if you use the External DSP power of the Origin....

From your Tone however,
There is absolutely "no guarantee" you will get an Origin for Christmas....
and Arturia is not held responsible for any other Crappy gifts that don't work for you.....

Vincent T

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In what way will Origen be a total rip-off
« Reply #5 on: August 27, 2007, 10:20:55 am »
Quote
Can you tell me what security features will be installed to renser Origen useless?


The only security feature is that Origin is a hardware unit. So it will be a bit harder to copy than the softwares... :)

Quote
Will you refuse to support it, as you have your other products?


We don't refuse to support the other products...Okay, sometimes the technical support is a bit overflowed but we are trying to do the best to solve our user's problems. And please understand that I'm sorry for your problem because I can appreciate what a deadline is, but we don't work on sundays..

Quote
What about the documentation?


What about the documentation of the other plugins?

Quote
Also, will the level of support you provide be dependant on the season? I noticed that because it is the summer, you've stated that you can't provide the level of support you usually provide.


hum ?

Quote
 What guarantee do I have that if I get this as a gift during the Christmas season and experience problems that you will ignore my requests for technical support for months on end (an important Arturia branding characteristic)?  


absolutely no garantee. But the fact is that Origin is a dedicated DSP plateform so :
- the CPU is the same on all units
- we don't have 10 differents sequencers to test (because each one introduces its own problems with the VSTi's)
- we don't have 4 differents OS to test  the plugins on.

so the context is the same for all the Origins -> the support will be far easier. (and of course we're trying to get rid of all the bugs because if one is excusable on a VSTi it is not on a Hardware unit)

Quote
I have to say that I was disappointed at the total reliability of the Nstive Instruments Kore midi controller (which has similar functionality to Origen in practicality).


as slammah said, no.

Quote
There is absolutely "no guarantee" you will get an Origin for Christmas....


you're right. The more time we spend on Origin, the more it will be usable and bug free...
Vincent
DSP Arturia

m@l0cch10

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In what way will Origen be a total rip-off
« Reply #6 on: August 28, 2007, 04:52:42 am »
Maybe I'm confused about KORE, I don't own it (same with Origen, for obvious reasons).  I thought both KORE and Origen were being marketed heavily for their abilities to modularize synthesizers to their component parts (such as LFOs and filters) and re-route, or mix-and-match them into unique, otherwise unobtainable configurations.  If that is so, then from my point of view, the two have similar functionality.  As far as Origen is concerned, this level of functionality would be the only reason I would purchase Origen because I have been satisfied with the Soft-synths so far.

My mistake was in being so sarcastic.  However, as a producer located in the United States I think I made my point clear regarding the danger of dealing with an equipment/software manufacturer with limited (historically) customer and technical support capabilities located that is located in France.

The difficulty I've had with this dongle is as a result of poor documentation.  One of the reasons it is so poor is because Arturia has not provided their text to English speaking technical writers that know how to emphasize the importance of critical information.  To wit, the fact that you cannot transfer Arturia licenses between Syncrosoft keys, which has stopped one of my company's (I am the owner) production paths in its tracks just short of project delivery.

Further, when I was a multimedia producer for Philips, we found that when we implemented DRM technology on electronic copyrightable material (DVDs usually), unit sales did not go up even during the period our researchers tried to locate and purchase pirated copies but could not.  Our conclusion was that the people that steal software simply will not buy it, even when that is their only choice.  They are not a viable market and our conclusion internally was that we did not lose nearly the amount of money we would think when suffering from the illusion that these people would buy from legitimate source if given no other choice.  At the time, we thought we were looking at a figure of definitely less than 5% and most of us were willing to bet it was less than 1%.

Ill express the follow-up argument - why did Philips continue using DRM?  More because it is a profit center for them, selling products that are DRM capable rather than promoting the idea that they are unnecessary (which would not be a profit center).

I have been a big fan of these products in the past and have a number of projects that use them extensively (some still in production, or that I may want to change in the future); but if I don't have a fix by this weekend I will have to purchase them again to support these projects.  After that, I will be done using them.

The most concise expression of my argument is my concern that if I rely on Arturia for any more of my infrastructure I could be shut down again, and I want to emphasize that if Arturia makes this right, fast (by Friday of this week) by either replacing my software or providing a fix that allows me to master my project and get it out the door, I will gladly report back that my concerns were completely unfounded.  

Also, my apologies to Vincent for the sarcasm.  I was definitely angry about this situation and was working in my own interests to get up and running, but making these postings in the Prophet V, Jupiter 8 and Brass forums was critical to getting word out before more owners made this mistake.
m@l0cch10

slammah2012

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In what way will Origen be a total rip-off
« Reply #7 on: August 28, 2007, 02:24:36 pm »
Quote from: "m@l0cch10"
Maybe I'm confused about KORE, I don't own it (same with Origen, for obvious reasons).  I thought both KORE and Origen were being marketed heavily for their abilities to modularize synthesizers to their component parts (such as LFOs and filters) and re-route, or mix-and-match them into unique, otherwise unobtainable configurations.  If that is so, then from my point of view, the two have similar functionality.  As far as Origen is concerned, this level of functionality would be the only reason I would purchase Origen because I have been satisfied with the Soft-synths so far.


Kore is a control surface...for multitasking and arranging multiple softsynths into a common menu.... If you want a brass sound... it will give a menu selection of brass sounds on all your soft synths and will give you parameter controll based on your preferences to these keyboards....
It in NO WAY is a modular synth where you can build by parts...It is all CPU based which means the more parts you have open, the more your CPU is affected....

Origin..... is a modular version of the Arturia CS80/ Mg Modular/Arp2600/Mini Mg/Profit..... with building blocks of the original soft synths and new Origin blocks... you can run modular ...or Original and out put your unique creations to individual audio outputs.....
.....and if you decide to turn your computer on at that point, you can use the origin as softsynths through your  usb without any CPU burden on your computer

Quote from: "m@l0cch10"
My mistake was in being so sarcastic.  However, as a producer located in the United States I think I made my point clear regarding the danger of dealing with an equipment/software manufacturer with limited (historically) customer and technical support capabilities located that is located in France.

The difficulty I've had with this dongle is as a result of poor documentation.  One of the reasons it is so poor is because Arturia has not provided their text to English speaking technical writers that know how to emphasize the importance of critical information.  To wit, the fact that you cannot transfer Arturia licenses between Syncrosoft keys, which has stopped one of my company's (I am the owner) production paths in its tracks just short of project delivery.

Further, when I was a multimedia producer for Philips, we found that when we implemented DRM technology on electronic copyrightable material (DVDs usually), unit sales did not go up even during the period our researchers tried to locate and purchase pirated copies but could not.  Our conclusion was that the people that steal software simply will not buy it, even when that is their only choice.  They are not a viable market and our conclusion internally was that we did not lose nearly the amount of money we would think when suffering from the illusion that these people would buy from legitimate source if given no other choice.  At the time, we thought we were looking at a figure of definitely less than 5% and most of us were willing to bet it was less than 1%.

Ill express the follow-up argument - why did Philips continue using DRM?  More because it is a profit center for them, selling products that are DRM capable rather than promoting the idea that they are unnecessary (which would not be a profit center).

I have been a big fan of these products in the past and have a number of projects that use them extensively (some still in production, or that I may want to change in the future); but if I don't have a fix by this weekend I will have to purchase them again to support these projects.  After that, I will be done using them.

The most concise expression of my argument is my concern that if I rely on Arturia for any more of my infrastructure I could be shut down again, and I want to emphasize that if Arturia makes this right, fast (by Friday of this week) by either replacing my software or providing a fix that allows me to master my project and get it out the door, I will gladly report back that my concerns were completely unfounded.  

Also, my apologies to Vincent for the sarcasm.  I was definitely angry about this situation and was working in my own interests to get up and running, but making these postings in the Prophet V, Jupiter 8 and Brass forums was critical to getting word out before more owners made this mistake.


Again.... there will be no reason for a dongle or software protection with the origin.......You can't download hardware ...

m@l0cch10

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In what way will Origen be a total rip-off
« Reply #8 on: August 29, 2007, 04:21:20 am »
Okay, you know more about that than I do.

I muddied the waters by bringing KORE up.  My primary issue is that while I was considering purchasing Origin, such a fundamental design flaw in the dongle (not being able to authorize a new computer to run the software after transfgerring the license) leads me to wonder if I should wait out the shake out peiod on hardware.

It is one thing to rely on support for easily replaced software from a company located in another country, it is another to pay more for hardware, that if damaged or flawed, may require that I send it back to the factory in the other country.  I've been through that with Yamaha.

I am interested to see if Arturia have been able to improve their support such that I receive a timely resolution to this devastating design flaw.  I did receive an e-mail from Cedric in support suggesting that I download the demo, which will run for 15 days.  That should help me to complete this project.

However, if I don't receive a technical solution on or about fifteen days from now, there is, of course no way I will be able to trust them again.

BTW, I haven't scoured this site, but as a producer a relevant question I want to ask is: are you authorizing technical service providers in other countries, or will defects or damage after warranty require us to send the unit back to France?

If we need to send the unit back to France, can you give us an idea of the expected turn-around time?  Also, do you currently have a rate card for expected costs of repairs for out of warranty work?

Companies with experience developing hardware usually prepare these items in anticipation of a new product release (at least professional products companies do).  For instance, I was able to get this prior to purchase for a pro-line video camera I was considering.
m@l0cch10

slammah2012

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In what way will Origen be a total rip-off
« Reply #9 on: August 29, 2007, 06:13:31 am »
Quote from: "m@l0cch10"
Okay, you know more about that than I do.

I muddied the waters by bringing KORE up.  My primary issue is that while I was considering purchasing Origin, such a fundamental design flaw in the dongle (not being able to authorize a new computer to run the software after transfgerring the license) leads me to wonder if I should wait out the shake out peiod on hardware.

It is one thing to rely on support for easily replaced software from a company located in another country, it is another to pay more for hardware, that if damaged or flawed, may require that I send it back to the factory in the other country.  I've been through that with Yamaha..

I am currently going through that with a 1 month old Yamaha MM6, and Just got my 11 month Korg Radias Back from Korg....These synths are mainly hardware, so there isnt much to do but ship....However, A problem I had with a 3 month old Creamware ASB B4000,was a different story....
It wasn't living up to a claim in print.....so I contacted them and I am now Beta Testing the Fix they made in software so other owners will get theirs working right....Seems that the Newer Software based HW synths should be fixable with software code , and I believe the Origin is that type of synth(updateable via software)

Vincent T

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In what way will Origen be a total rip-off
« Reply #10 on: August 29, 2007, 08:54:45 am »
Quote
I believe the Origin is that type of synth(updateable via software)


and you're right!
Vincent
DSP Arturia

m@l0cch10

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In what way will Origen be a total rip-off
« Reply #11 on: August 29, 2007, 08:32:24 pm »
Just about every hardware synth has both a software and hardware component.  This doesn't answer my questions.  Say I travel with my synth to a show and it is damaged.  Totally my fault, totally out of warranty, but I still want to get it fixed.

Will I have to ship it?  If so, do you have a rate card for the types of fixes that may need to be performed, such as a damaged power connection?  Experienced hardware developers that make equipment for professionals usually have these collaterals available to potential customers prior to release.

Sure, Arturia makes some excellent software, but I'm not aware of any hardware products they have already released.  And for the fact that I didn't discover this dongle problem until about a year after I purchased the Prophet V, I think I'm going to have to wait about a year to see what the early adopters discover.

Also, don't forget, updates on the Prophet V were SLOW to arrive.  How much do I want a piece of equipment sitting around my already jammed space doing nothing?
m@l0cch10

slammah2012

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In what way will Origen be a total rip-off
« Reply #12 on: August 30, 2007, 01:49:51 am »
Quote from: "m@l0cch10"
Just about every hardware synth has both a software and hardware component.  This doesn't answer my questions.  Say I travel with my synth to a show and it is damaged.  Totally my fault, totally out of warranty, but I still want to get it fixed.

I believe the Arturia synth is open source which means its open structure is changeable with firmware....not atall like fixed synths that you update via sysexclusive....Open means they could possibly add  a jupiter to it in the future, maybe at the expense of a lesser used modular....

Quote from: m@l0cch10
Will I have to ship it?  If so, do you have a rate card for the types of fixes that may need to be performed, such as a damaged power connection?  Experienced hardware developers that make equipment for professionals usually have these collaterals available to potential customers prior to release.

I don't know how you purchase Hardware Synths,But I always go to a Music Store and pay monthly payments to buy my in-stock items and special order devices...

For the Origin Keyboard I am expecting to need around $500 down payment on the board the day it arrives..... and a $ 150. monthly over 2 years...

If anything goes wrong during the payment process, the store is there to make sure all things get fixed at no extra expence to me....

As Far as a "rate card", Have you ever got one from any other company based on a hypothetical future disaster???
I have owned 1 Mg, 1 Arp, 5 Roland's,2 Yamaha's,1 Elka,2 Hammond's, 1 Korg,1 Ensoniq,5 Alesis,1 Mackie,1 RME,1 Creamware,3 Behringer, 3 Studer, 2 Lexicon,2 Evantide,several AKG, 1 MCI, 2 SSL's,and have yet to hear about a "Rate Card"...
(I've never owned a Casio or M audio....maybe they come with one)


Quote from: "m@l0cch10"
Sure, Arturia makes some excellent software, but I'm not aware of any hardware products they have already released.  And for the fact that I didn't discover this dongle problem until about a year after I purchased the Prophet V, I think I'm going to have to wait about a year to see what the early adopters discover.

Also, don't forget, updates on the Prophet V were SLOW to arrive.  How much do I want a piece of equipment sitting around my already jammed space doing nothing


Then Wait untill you are absolutely satisfied.....no pressure.

m@l0cch10

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In what way will Origen be a total rip-off
« Reply #13 on: August 30, 2007, 05:01:44 am »
My apologies for the incorrect information.  I was definitely wrong that the licenses cannot be transferred.  They can.

I've been working on this with an audio engineer I use a lot.  We looked at all the responses and decided to take it on faith that we were wrong that the licenses cannot be transferred.

In my studio, we re-installed OS X and then re-installed the Arturia software and the latest version of Syncrosoft before installing any other software.  We noticed that the latest syncrosoft license center was having difficulty seeing the license keys plugged into a usb hub.  That being the case, we switched out the USB hub with another.  Same deal.

We plugged the key directly into the USB port and the license center saw the key and the licenses.  These are both powered usb hubs, so it should not have been a power problem.  We're not going to give up a USB port to one device (especially a dongle we need to move between computers), so we tried it on the hub again.  The device and the licenses showed up.

We initiated Prophet V and it started fine.  I wanted to make sure we got sound from it so I installed the software driver for my audio interface, which required a restart.  After restart the license center had great difficulty finding the device.  I must have hit refresh thiry or forty times.  No dice.

We waited ten minutes and it found the device and the licenses.  We tried to start the Prophet V and it started up.  We put Jupiter 8 and Brass on as well. And went back and forth with license center, but they are running now.

We went over to my audio engineer's studio and loaded the software up there to determine if it was something to do with my configuration.  He uses different Macs than I do and hasn't ever loaded any of this software on the one we tested.  Same results.

One thing to note, because I have three keys but only one with licenses, we decided to test the license center with the other keys to eliminate the possibility that it was a physical problem with the keys.  In each case in which license center could not see the device, it also could not see either of the other two devices (so it was not a problem with the key).

Out of curiosity, we looked and saw that the latest version of license center was put up on August 24th.  My experience so far has been that on restart, it is problematic to get the license center to see the devices.  On Friday when this problem began, we could not get the applications to run even when the license center saw the devices and the licenses.

I'm not going to complain to Syncrosoft about this, because they don't see me as a customer.  Arturia is their customer.

I do want to apologize to Arturia and the other posters for pushing so hard on the idea that the licenses could not be transferred.  The language on the syncrosoft support page indicates that the licenses are disabled after transfer, but another reader pointed out that what the writer was trying to say was that the licenses could only be transferred and not copied.  Once a license is transferred to a different key, the user can't use that key any longer to run the software.

That was what prompted me to begin testing everything more thoroughly tonight.

I'll reiterate that I still think the dongles make this an inherently less reliable system.  I also think that it must be apparent to all the users that Arturia has entrusted too much to a company (syncrosoft) outside of their control.  Beyond that, the fact that I was put out of action for half a week due to any problem arising from the Arturia software makes it an obviously risky proposition for me to use the software on my tracks, no matter how good it is.  I got a good response from technical support though, so I imagine I won't avoid it altogether.
m@l0cch10

Vincent T

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In what way will Origen be a total rip-off
« Reply #14 on: August 30, 2007, 08:59:53 am »
Happy that it is working again :D Sure that synchrosoft doesn't help the software to be more stable and reliable ; it's also 50% of our technical support..
Vincent
DSP Arturia

 

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