MIDI CC Number Conflict

[bcab17]

Noob question about MIDI CC Number. I've had an X-Touch control surface that has been working great with Reaper. I just added my first midi keyboard controller (Keylab MKII), and both were playing nicely together...until I moved a slider on the MKII to change the EQ on a piano (it's the first slider...on the left). The slider controlled the piano parameter fine, but it also moved the selected track item in Reaper to the right. It turns out that midi cc 73 is assigned to the the MKII slider AND an encoder on the X-Touch to which I had mapped the "move item right" action.

I don't know how to fix this. I thought I could simply assign a different shortcut to the X-Touch encoder, but it always comes up as cc 73 (so I assume that particular encoder must be assigned cc 73...I can't find a way to change it). It looks like I can change the cc number in the Arturia MCC software (I tried changing the slider to an unassigned cc number (85), but it didn't work). Beyond that, I really don't know what I'm doing, and I don't want to screw things up.

Sorry for being such a Midiot. Is there a way to avoid these cc number conflicts? Would assigning the X-Touch and the keyboard to different midi channels do the trick (that's if I can actually figure out how to change midi channels)?

[LBH]

Which keyboard mode are you in, when this happens? Analog Lab, User or DAW?

I assume you have set the contoller up to control your DAW functions like you can read here: https://www.arturia.com/faq/keylabmkii/keylab-mkii-tips-tricks

But have you also set the controller up as a Keyboard device?

I don't use Reaper, so i don't know excactly how the setup is done in Reaper.

It looks like I can change the cc number in the Arturia MCC software (I tried changing the slider to an unassigned cc number (85), but it didn't work).

What excactly did'nt work? What happened? I assume your other controller could still control on midi CC 73. Keep in mind, thet changing the midi CC for a control on your controller, will not change the midi CC that's set for parameters in software. So the software will still have the midi cc73 you mention, even if you change midi cc on your controller. You have to change the midi cc in the software. In this case i would change the midi cc for the Reaper step track function, if it's needed too change anything. Changing the midi CC in your controller will just breake the connection it allready had to the Arturia software, and to the Reaper funvtionality it was set to control for that matter. No need to change the connection Analog Lab mode in example have to Analog Lab.

Is there a way to avoid these cc number conflicts? Would assigning the X-Touch and the keyboard to different midi channels do the trick (that's if I can actually figure out how to change midi channels)?

Does'nt Reaper have a way to handle and select between multiple controllers? Perhaps it's called something like Input Device.

I suggest you ask in Reaper forums on how to work with midi cc in Reaper.

BTW: Please don't doubble post questions. Please remove the other post about this, or create a link there for this thread.

EDIT: FYI: A unassigned midi cc mean it's not in forhand and in generel have been reserved for certain standard tasks. It can be a good idea to use the assigned/ reserved midi cc's for the tasks they are assigned reserved for, and then use unassigned midi cc's for others tasks. So when you in example in Arturias midi control center see some midi cc's have a certain name, and others just say unassigned, then it's just because the named ones is something many use as standard for that task, and the unassigned perhaps is used by some without being a standard for many. It can be a good idea to read and learn something about this. EDIT END

[bcab17]

Which keyboard mode are you in, when this happens? Analog Lab, User or DAW?

I assume you have set the contoller up to control your DAW functions like you can read here: https://www.arturia.com/faq/keylabmkii/keylab-mkii-tips-tricks

But have you also set the controller up as a Keyboard device?

I don't use Reaper, so i don't know excactly how the setup is done in Reaper.

It looks like I can change the cc number in the Arturia MCC software (I tried changing the slider to an unassigned cc number (85), but it didn't work).

What excactly did'nt work? What happened? I assume your other controller could still control on midi CC 73. Keep in mind, thet changing the midi CC for a control on your controller, will not change the midi CC that's set for parameters in software. So the software will still have the midi cc73 you mention, even if you change midi cc on your controller. You have to change the midi cc in the software. In this case i would change the midi cc for the Reaper step track function, if it's needed too change anything. Changing the midi CC in your controller will just breake the connection it allready had to the Arturia software, and to the Reaper funvtionality it was set to control for that matter. No need to change the connection Analog Lab mode in example have to Analog Lab.

Is there a way to avoid these cc number conflicts? Would assigning the X-Touch and the keyboard to different midi channels do the trick (that's if I can actually figure out how to change midi channels)?

Does'nt Reaper have a way to handle and select between multiple controllers? Perhaps it's called something like Input Device.

I suggest you ask in Reaper forums on how to work with midi cc in Reaper.

BTW: Please don't doubble post questions. Please remove the other post about this, or create a link there for this thread.

EDIT: FYI: A unassigned midi cc mean it's not in forhand and in generel have been reserved for certain standard tasks. It can be a good idea to use the assigned/ reserved midi cc's for the tasks they are assigned reserved for, and then use unassigned midi cc's for others tasks. So when you in example in Arturias midi control center see some midi cc's have a certain name, and others just say unassigned, then it's just because the named ones is something many use as standard for that task, and the unassigned perhaps is used by some without being a standard for many. It can be a good idea to read and learn something about this. EDIT END

Thanks for your help (I have deleted the other post). I'm not in my studio now, so I'll try to answer everything from memory. It's in Analog Lab mode when the first fader on the MK2 controls the associated synth parameter AND moves the selected midi item in Reaper to the right. In DAW mode, the fader on the MK2 controls the level of the first track in Reaper (as it should). In Reaper, there's a Control Surface page in preferences where you set up controllers. I have the X-Touch set up there, as well as the MK2...each having their MIDI in and out assigned. Reaper has another preferences page called MIDI Devices. Here is where I enabled the MK2 for MIDI in and Control (the X-Touch is not a keyboard, just a control surface, so it is NOT enabled as a MIDI device). With this configuration, they both worked well (with the MK2 set to Reaper mode...and it also works when set to MCU mode (in MCC).

When changing the cc for the MK2 fader to an unassigned number in the MCC, the result was that the MK2 seemed to lose all DAW control. So, I quickly changed it back to CC 73. Then in Reaper, I deleted the cc 73 for the action mapped to the X-Touch encoder, and with cc 73 belonging exclusively to the fader on the MK2, it worked without issue...except for the loss of the "move selected item right" function on the X-Touch. I tried reassigning a shortcut for that function, and it keeps coming up as cc 73. I do not see any way in Reaper to set a specific cc number for an action.

I have been a member of the Reaper forum for quite a while, as well as being a member of a few Reaper-related Facebook groups. I have asked this question there a little while ago. No answer on the forum yet, but on one of the groups, a few people weren't sure, but suggested that I set the MK2 and the X-Touch to send on different MIDI channels. Does that sound like a possible way to avoid cc conflicts?

[LBH]

Look like you have'nt undertood what i wrote in my first reply.
Perhaps this explains better: Midi CC is sent from something and is recieved by something else. It only work when the midi CC is set to the same on both ends.
So if your controller is set to send a messages on "midi CH XX midi CC YY" then it will only work on reciveing units like in this case your software, if they have parameters or actions/ functions that are set to recieve on the same "midi CH XX midi CC YY".
This should tell you, that you broke this link between your controller and your software, when only changed the midi CC on you controller and got the result you got.

The point in using multiple midi channels is/ should be to seperate the same midi CC numbers, so they won't be the same messages anymore. So if you only change midi channel on your controller, then you also just cut the link between the sending and recieving end, like when you only changed the midi cc on your controller. So you still have to change the recieving end to recieve on the same "midi CH XX midi CC YY" that the sending end sends out, to get this to work.

In Reaper try to look at the Actions menu: Did a web search and found this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uaFnnaTKI_Q.
I think there are more videos about doing things like this out there. It has to do with Reaper.
And i still suggest you learn and get a understanding about midi CC.

Perhaps it will be easier, if you let the next and previous track functionality/ actions be controlled by your computer keyboard. But that's also a personal preference. It perhaps also depend on, if there are other possiblities in Reaper.

[bcab17]

Look like you have'nt undertood what i wrote in my first reply.
Perhaps this explains better: Midi CC is sent from something and is recieved by something else. It only work when the midi CC is set to the same on both ends.
So if your controller is set to send a messages on "midi CH XX midi CC YY" then it will only work on reciveing units like in this case your software, if they have parameters or actions/ functions that are set to recieve on the same "midi CH XX midi CC YY".
This should tell you, that you broke this link between your controller and your software, when only changed the midi CC on you controller and got the result you got.

The point in using multiple midi channels is/ should be to seperate the same midi CC numbers, so they won't be the same messages anymore. So if you only change midi channel on your controller, then you also just cut the link between the sending and recieving end, like when you only changed the midi cc on your controller. So you still have to change the recieving end to recieve on the same "midi CH XX midi CC YY" that the sending end sends out, to get this to work.

In Reaper try to look at the Actions menu: Did a web search and found this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uaFnnaTKI_Q.
I think there are more videos about doing things like this out there. It has to do with Reaper.
And i still suggest you learn and get a understanding about midi CC.

Perhaps it will be easier, if you let the next and previous track functionality/ actions be controlled by your computer keyboard. But that's also a personal preference. It perhaps also depend on, if there are other possiblities in Reaper.

Thanks. I have watched many of Kenny Gioia's Reaper videos...including the one you linked to. That is how I custom mapped some actions to my X-Touch control surface. It's just that when you do that, the cc number is automatically assigned, and there's no way to change it.

I was thinking about changing the MIDI channel on the keyboard...that's pretty straight forward. I know that when I set up a virtual instrument track in Reaper, I can select the MIDI channel for input...so playing/recording instruments with the keyboard set to any channel should work just fine...as long as I select that channel for the track midi input. However, if I'm understanding you correctly, I would also have to set Reaper to receive control messages on that different MIDI channel...and that's where I get hung up. I will keep looking.

[LBH]

I was thinking about changing the MIDI channel on the keyboard...that's pretty straight forward. I know that when I set up a virtual instrument track in Reaper, I can select the MIDI channel for input...so playing/recording instruments with the keyboard set to any channel should work just fine...as long as I select that channel for the track midi input. However, if I'm understanding you correctly, I would also have to set Reaper to receive control messages on that different MIDI channel...and that's where I get hung up.

Yes.

Also keep looking.
Like you can see in this midi chart https://www.midi.org/forms/midi_chart-v2.pdf then midi cc 73 is defined for Attack Time, and for that reason can be exspected to be used as such by default by manufactors.

I think you can change shortcuts for Reapers actions, unless there is a bug. Or perhaps it has to do, with your other controller. I can't tell. I suggest you ask about this in Reaper forum or ask Reaper support.

Good luck.

EDIT: Perhaps reinstalling Reaper would do the trick and also reset the settings. EDIT END

[bcab17]

I was thinking about changing the MIDI channel on the keyboard...that's pretty straight forward. I know that when I set up a virtual instrument track in Reaper, I can select the MIDI channel for input...so playing/recording instruments with the keyboard set to any channel should work just fine...as long as I select that channel for the track midi input. However, if I'm understanding you correctly, I would also have to set Reaper to receive control messages on that different MIDI channel...and that's where I get hung up.

Yes.

Also keep looking.
Like you can see in this midi chart https://www.midi.org/forms/midi_chart-v2.pdf then midi cc 73 is defined for Attack Time, and for that reason can be exspected to be used as such by default by manufactors.

I think you can change shortcuts for Reapers actions, unless there is a bug. Or perhaps it has to do, with your other controller. I can't tell. I suggest you ask about this in Reaper forum or ask Reaper support.

Good luck.

EDIT: Perhaps reinstalling Reaper would do the trick and also reset the settings. EDIT END

Thanks, again. You are absolutely correct that I need to learn more about MIDI. It's interesting that CC 73 is sort of "standardized" for a specific function...I wonder why Reaper assigned it to a shortcut for moving a selected item forward. I have been speaking with a few people in the Reaper forum, and they have given me suggestions to try...no luck yet.

Happy Holidays to you and yours.