bug - Analog Lab 4 as VST does not take input from Keylab MK2

[shiny]

I am using a Keylab MK2, and Analog lab works fine as standalone; I can modify parameters with my knobs and faders.

But if I load it as VST, in a DAW (Studio one 4 for example), then none of the controls works, except the jog wheel and the 2 arrow keys below the jog wheel.

I tried to swap between the profiles, and get back to the "analog lab" button profile, but nothing change.

Does anyone have the same issue? I am running analog lab on Windows 10; with the latest firmware for the keylab MK2

[LBH]

Hi and welcome to Arturia forums.

How do you come to the conclusion to say this is a Analog Lab bug?
I think this can be about how your controllers Analog Lab mode work in Studio One, or about Studio One.
I'm not having an Arturia controller yet. I have Studio One 3 and use Windows 10.

Are the display on your controller working with Studio One? If so, then perhaps that a strong indicator that it's a mapping issue. Even if it does'nt work, then it can still be a mapping issue i assume.

A thing to remember is, that in Studio One if you map controls to use for Studio Ones internal midi mapping system Control Link, then the controls will not be availble for "normal" Midi CC use and perhaps not for sysex use either.
I don't know which communication system Control Link in Studio One or your controllers Analog Lab mode use.
But perhaps it's possible, that you have disconnected  the automatic link between Analog Lab and your controller, if you have mapped the controls for Control Link.

Perhaps it's possible to map one of your controllers User maps for Studio Ones Control Link, while not mapping other User maps.

If you have mapped your controller for Studio Ones Control Link, then you can also try to unmap it and see if that make a difference.

If you can't get it to work at least without using Studio Ones Control Link mapping, then i can only suggest you contact Arturia support directly through your account and ask if and how it works.

I'm also interested in knowing if and how this works.

I hope this helps.

[shiny]

Hi,

How did I come to the conclusion that it is an Analog lab bug? Because the controller works in Midi mode and in DAW mode; and it works in Analog lab standalone; but not in the VST.
Going by logic, the VST is the issue; which means that something is wrong in how Analog lab communicate with the VST protocol with the device. Other VST works fine with another controller, so Studio One is probably not the source of the problem.

Not sure what you mean by the display on the controller. It has 3 buttons to choose the mode; and a 2 text line screen to show what is going on; which works fine.

This is not related to Studio one mapping; when the Keylab MK2 is in "Analog Lab" mode, it is set to work just for Analog lab, without send CC messages; it is its own mode that you choose with a button on the controller, and it is not modifiable, so Studio one can't even see the button press from the Keylab, when in Analog lab mode.

I can use Keylab in Studio One without issues, via midi mode; and I can technically re-map Analog lab in midi mode; but feels a joke to buy a 450 USD keyboard, that has as selling point a button to use Analog lab integration, and have to map Analog lab to midi, like a 3rd party controller. That is one of their selling points after all; not cool.

[LBH]

I can only conclude it's a communication issue of some kind.

I wonder why the display show correct informations, and why the jogwheel and the 2 buttons you mention does work in Analog Mode but nothing else. What's the difference between those controls and the other controls that does'nt work? This can be a Analog Lab bug yes, but should'nt everyone have this issue then? Just wondering.
In a DAW i would believe, that the DAW also is a part of the communication chain. I assume you does'nt bypass Studio Ones enviroment by selecting Analog Lab mode. But i'm not a technician.

If you are sure this is'nt a setup issue, and you do use the Analog Lab map in map select, and you are certain that mapping for Studio Ones Control link has'nt anything to do with it, then i - as said - can only suggest you contact Arturia support directly.

One day i might get an Arturia controller, but as it is, then i can't test and help further.

I hope you'll get it to work and update this thread. I believe it should work, and i exspect it should, but i would like to know for sure.

Good luck.

[shiny]

I agree that the issue is of some sort of communication not happening.

Not sure what is the difference between the controls; I do not have visibility on the signals that the keyboard send, nor what kind of microcontroller it uses, unless I take it apart and probe with the oscilloscope. From my superficial understanding, when in Analog lab mode, the hardware talk exclusively with Analog lab; with the exception of the transport controls, which works no matter which mode are you in.

Not sure how many people use Studio one with Analog lab as VST; the VST protocol is a protocol....as such its implementation is universal, but each DAW has its own way to handle signals. So what works in Ableton may not work in Cubase or Logic and so on. I would assume that if Arturia say that a DAW is supported, they did try to use their VST on such DAW. Not sure about Arturia Quality control department size and involvement.

I did send a ticket to Arturia, let's see what they say. I will try with Logic too; those are the only DAW I have so far.

Maybe you did the right thing to not get a Keylab controller Or maybe you use a DAW that is more common like Live; which should be thoroughly supported.

[LBH]

I was too fast to say everyone perhaps should have issues. There is times, where i myself have found bugs no one else had, but only because i had something that differed from others - like many banks in my V-Collection applications. And your issue can be a DAW related issue of some kind, as you can read in my posts.

There are lots of controllers that does'nt have full functionality with any DAW/ host. Studio One have difficulties with Nektar, Roli, and up till recent Komplete Kontrol 2 and still with Komplete Kontrol 1, and perhaps more i know off as in example AKAI advanced. There are many things Stusio One does't support including normal pick up features. It's not that easy to use my 7½ years old Novation MKII controllers automap functionality, Control Link and MIDI CC in Studio One either.
Unfortunately it seems to be normal, that one have to check if a controller have full functionality in a certain DAW/ host. I agree it's something that should be mentioned on sales sites. (Actually Arturia mention Studio One in FAQ for your controller, so i assume, it should work.)

Actually i think Arturia are at least as integrated with extra functionality than the common functionality with any host as other controllers, and i actually have a hard time to see many other controllers that have 9 sliders and such instead of 8, and that's to me very important as an organ has 9 drawbars and many other mappings can benefit from having 9 controls instead of 8.
More User maps and Banks would be nice.
Arturias controllers are currently high on my wish list, even though i could do without the category choice buttons and such, as i have more categories than that.
How a keyboard is to play is also very important for me.
Time will tell which controller will be my next. Who knows if there eve come a MKIII with all the things i like before i get a new controller.
I also think about changing DAW and not use Studio One, as i think it's behind in much functionality for my usage as a midi and plugin based electronic music production, unless version 5 will catch up including having audio routing to instrument plugins and modulator possibilities between plug-ins, like i think all DAWs should have by standard today.

I hope you'll get things to work, and you will be happy for your controller, as i would like your Arturia controller to be a great choice for you.

Best
LBH

[shiny]

Hey LBH,

No problem; I work as sw engineer, I am aware of the issues that happen to one person only, and 10K others can't reproduce it

It seems that the issue is real, and one of the Arturia customer service agents did actually reveal something that did surprise me to no end.

The Keylab MK2 IS NOT ABLE TO USE BOTH THE USER MODE AND ANALOG LAB MODE IN A DAW.

What does it mean? Basically if you have a DAW with controls you want to map in User mode, you map them via CC signals; this is what 99.9% of midi controllers do. All nice and dandy; until you try to use Analog Lab.
The controls for Analog Lab, while in Analog lab mode (there is a button for that; and Arturia did push that feature to no end with all youtubers and influencers), does conflict with any assignment you made in User mode; with the result that when you try to control Analog Lab as VST, it won't work.

I didn't try it yet with Logic, but this is what happens in Studio One. When you assign controls in the DAW, and you are in User mode; those controls and signals are shared with the Analog lab mode; so fundamentally you don't have 2 different modes between Analog lab and User mode, but they are the same. DAW mode is the only different one, because it uses Mackie surface control; as such it is not affected, but you can't assign anything in DAW mode, and just use what Arturia set for you.

Where to go now? Not sure. If I can't use Analog Lab as VST and use the user mode controls, I am not sure I want to keep my Keylab MK2, since I can't just buy the midi controller and save 150USD for Analog Lab... because if I have to choose between Analog lab controls or the User mode; I would rather choose user mode.
This is really disappointing; marketing for this keyboard has been brutal in promoting something that in fact is not possible (control Analog lab with one button, and customize your DAW controls in User mode), and this is a big hit for me, because I really like the controller.

If the problem is just in Studio one, I would expect Arturia to make it clear with a statement or a note on the manual; but if the issue is in every DAW; then this is really bad to be honest. Not sure how many people purchased the Keylab MK2 because of the 3 independent modes, and ended up instead having 2 modes.

[LBH]

Hi Shiny,

Are you sure, that the meaning in what Arturia support say?
The way i understand the manual, then you can use all 3 modes in a DAW.
In example you can read the following in Keylab 61 MKII manual:
"When in DAW mode you can switch to Analog Lab mode and do everything described in this
chapter, if the instrument assigned to the current track is Analog Lab 4. The DAW Commands section
and the transport section will continue to function as they do in DAW mode. But keep in mind that the
Track select buttons will be used to filter sounds in Analog Lab 4; to select different tracks and track
groups, switch back into DAW mode."
That describe the use of Analog Lab mode in a DAW - does'nt it?

But as i wrote in my first post, then there can be a conflict with Studio Ones Control Link, if you map controls for that.
I'm still not sure if you have done that. I think you just said, that it was'nt about that.

I don't know, but as there is a Analog Lab template, then i assume Analog Lab mode is using a midi CC template. That mean, that if you map midi CCs used in the Analog Lab template for Studio Ones Control Link, then they will not work in Analog Lab mode, i will guess.

So if you don't map any of the midi CCs that Analog Lab use for Studio Ones Control Link, then i would think Analog Lab mode should work in Studio One.

I also suggest you does'nt map things like modwheel and expression pedal for Studio ones control link, as that also will mean they does'nt work even for Studio Ones own Mai Tai modulation panel.

Keep in mind that Studio Ones Control Link is an optional system. So you can also choose, to do a manual mapping of Analog Lab using Studio Ones Control Link, and then drop to use Analog Lab mode.

Are you still sure, that your issue is'nt about you have mapped midi CCs for Studio Ones control link? If you have'nt mapped any midi CCs for Studio Ones Control Link system, then i can't understand, why it should'nt work for you in Studio One, especially when in example your jogwheel and the display does work.

As i does'nt have an Arturia controller yet, then i can't be certain about how things work.

[shiny]

Yep, While I am not a native English speaker; I think I can get a grasp on some statements, especially since their reply was longer than just that sentence.

Let's make an example, so this is probably clearer.

- if you press the analog lab mode, and you have analog lab as VST in your DAW, the knobs and buttons works fine; that's what it was designed for, after all.
- if you press the DAW mode button, your DAW will work fine, as long as you set up the Keylab as mackie controller. The DAW features are bound to the transport controls, the 10 buttons to control the DAW and the rotary knob, which scrub your timeline. Faders control volume, knobs control pan, and the buttons control the channels.
- If you press the User mode; you can assign controls (knobs, faders, buttons, times 3 since you have 3 banks), and the 10 DAW buttons, to CC controls; this can be done in your DAW for whatever functionality you want, or for your VST to assign parameters to it.

Now, switching between those modes allow you to do everything, BUT the Analog lab mode, is in fact the same as the User mode; it works with CC signals.

I sniffed the data going through USB and found that in Analog mode, the keyboard send CC messages; it is fundamentally a "profile" that Arturia created, to control Analog Lab; instead of being a stand-alone and detached mode. As counterproof, I was able to use a micro-controller via USB, that is sending midi signals as CC, to fake it as keyboard, and I could change controls in Analog lab, by using certain CC messages.

So in fact, when you buy the Keylab, you shoild be aware that you do not have 3 modes, but 1 plus a mackie controller mode for the DAW controls. In fact, the keyboard show up as midi keyboard and as keylab, which is fine.

Arturia advertise 3 modes, while in reality, you have user mode with 10 profiles, an extra user mode profile for Analog lab, which has its own button, and the DAW mode button that send Mackie signals.

Hence, if you want to assign a mode in USER mode, for DAW or VST controls; and you want to keep the mapping for the Analog lab mode; you need to spoof the CC signals going through USB; find out which CC commands are sent by each of the controls while in analog lab mode, and then in User mode, be sure that you do not assign those controls.

I would have no issues if Arturia would put in the manual this "little" detail, with a full list of what CC is used by each control, so when you write your mappings in the midi editor, you can avoid these CC and be able to use all your controls, the DAW controls and Analog lap pre-mapped controls. But doing so, they would fundamentally say "we added a button for Analog lab, saying that we did special work for a close integration with the software, while in reality we are simply using midi CC with a special profile, so we could just make an Analog lab preset in the User mode, and have 3 buttons instead of 2".

That feels like a good reason to not really trust a company that sell you hardware or software; at least in my book.

[LBH]

Hi Shiny,

I agree that i would exspect Analog Lab mode to be working in a speciel integrated mode with Analog Lab.
I would exspect to have 128 midi CCs to map for a DAW system like Studio Ones Control Link if i wish to, and still have Analog Lab mode working normally out of the box.

In fact, the keyboard show up as midi keyboard and as keylab, which is fine.

Does this mean you have the possible to add your controller as external device for Studio One both as "Keylab" and as "Midi keyboard" and as "DAW"?
If so, then perhaps you can create a setup where the "Keylab" setup is used for Analog Lab mode controlling and where the "MIDI" setup is used for other controlling, without the risk of conflicts.
If it works, then this will give you 2 seperate keyboard control surfaces in Studio One instead of 1.
I do something like that with my controller that both can use different automap functionality and normal generic controller Templates.
The downside in this is, that you have to switch between the 2 control surfaces in Studio One, when it's needed.

[shiny]

Agree; the expectation was all 128 CC plus the DAW controls plus the stand alone Analog lab mode; so you can swap between the 3 modes while in the DAW. Sadly it is not the case.

So in Studio one, to get both the User mode and DAW mode to work correctly, you have to create a mackie controller and assign that to the midi keylab, to get the DAW functionalities, and a keyboard controller for everything else. Analog lab mode works once you set up the keyboard device.

IF you try to assign to a new controller, one of these 2 devices, you get a conflict error from Studio one. The alternative would be to create a keyboard device that respond only on a midi channel; and another that respond to all midi channels but that one you assigned on the first profile; although that open up a slew of issues, especially if you use different VST that need a channel each. I tried that and it was not that useful, especially because you have to do a ton of mouse work to swap between channels in Studio one.

I did create a profile that exclude the CC assigned to Analog Lab mode; took me a bit to sniff all the signals but got them all or so; I created a user profile assigning all the buttons to controls that are not in the Analog Lab list, and that's the best workaround I could find.

I am trying 2 different other controllers, to see if I want to return the Keylab or not; if those other 2 are working better out of the box than the keylab; I will probably return it. Sorry to say but I am very disappointed at Arturia.

[LBH]

So in Studio one, to get both the User mode and DAW mode to work correctly, you have to create a mackie controller and assign that to the midi keylab, to get the DAW functionalities, and a keyboard controller for everything else. Analog lab mode works once you set up the keyboard device.

This i consider normal procedure, when you set up any controller. I also have a Mackie for controlling DAWs.  Beside that i also have a keyboard setup. That's normal. I thought you had that from the beginning, as you said the keyboard controller was working. I do agree it's a fault that Arturia in the FQA  ( https://www.arturia.com/faq/keylabmkii/keylab-mkii-tips-tricks) only mention to set up the DAW mode, even if the text also say it's to control Studio One parameters.

IF you try to assign to a new controller, one of these 2 devices, you get a conflict error from Studio one.

Perhaps you can do it anyway, as you does'nt use both User mode and Analog mode at the same time.
I also got that message for my Novation  controller, but it works fine because i only use one mode  and one control surface at a time in Studio One. You can set that for each instance of an instrument.
I can't tell you get no conflicts, but it's possible you don't, provided you are using 2 different in/ outs in the external device setup. But if you only have a DAW In/ out and a single keyboard in/ out, then it might be another matter. I read you like you had one DAW and 2 Keyboard in/ outs to choose from.

It's fair to be disapointed, if Analog Lab mode is a midi CC map, that make it impossible to have 128 midi CC avaible for in example Studio Ones Control Link and similar DAW mappings, as this kind of mappings make a control unavaible for "normal" midi CC learn.
In other cases i don't think it matter, but that's enough.

BTW: May i ask? - When in Analog Mode, then does Part 1, Part 2, and Live mode use the same or different midi CCs? Does it take 18 or 54 midi CCs (3x9 knobs and 3x9 faders) to control it all? I assume now it's 54.

And does Banks in User mode take 27 or 81 midi CCs (3x27 controls)? I assume now it's 81.

How many other buttons and knobs use a midi CC?

[shiny]

Yeah, I think that issue of adding controllers is only in Studio One; that require different controls for DAW and other controls. On logic the keyboard is recognized immeadiately, same for Reaper but I didn't play with it much in other DAWs

As long as it works, I am fine with a one time setup.

I tried as you said; and you still need to know which CC input Analog lab accept, that's why I didn't even bother mapping Analog lab to a different profile, and just adjusted the User mode to not use those CC messages from Analog lab profile

So for Analog lab mode, part 1 and 2 are identical; the part1, part2 and live buttons have CC on it, but when you switch you get the same cc on knobs and faders; although that's just if you use multi.

As far as User mode; you have to subtract from the 127 CC, the ones used by Analog lab:

74, 71, 76, 77, 93, 18, 19,16 and 17 are the knobs row
73, 75, 79, 72, 80, 81, 82, 83 and 85 are the faders row
Buttons are all 30

Bank 1, 2 and live are 22, 23 and 24

left and right arrows are 28 and 29
the knob is 114 and the knob button is 115
Category button is 116, preset is 117

so you still have 27 controls x3 banks; I have to double check if using multi you loose another set of 27 controls or not.

[LBH]

Thanks for the informations Shiny.

Yes it's important to know how many midi CCs is used.
And what about the 4 knobs inside each of the 8 Macros BTW? I don't think they can be mapped with Analog Lab set to a Generic controller.
And then there are the buttons in the DAW section, the modwheel and the 5 controller inputs that use midi CC. And the Panic button.
More ?
And as there are more controls that might need to be used as Midi CC like perhaps some functions in the bottom panel in other applications, then there will only be a few left that can be mapped for Studio Ones Control Link controller surface mapping, - at least for one midi channel.

Of coarse one can map as many controls one wan't to the DAWs Control system, and then map Analog Lab using that system. But that is'nt what one exspect one have to do.

I assume each midi channel can provide a new midi CC set. I can't see throug it's impact on the possibilities right now.
But could it be, that you can create a user map where the controls have another midi channel, and then you have a full set of midi CCs avaible for Control Link and so on?  Can that work?

I would like to think, that there's a way to get things to work, in a flexible way. More like one exspect.

[shiny]

Not sure what are you referring to, about "4 knobs inside each of the 8 macros"; I see only the 9 knobs on the right of the keyboard.

The daw buttons are assignable in User mode, although I could not find the CC used for those buttons. But I get no conflicts when assigning CC with those buttons, so I assume they are set as MAckie controls, when in DAW mode or in Analog Lab mode

Modwheel is always CC 1; pitch bend is not assignable. The modwheel and 5 controller input are not assignable in user mode, but they do use CC in Analog lab mode

As far as I can tell, the only controls you can assign, are the 27x3 controls on the right, the 10 DAW buttons and that's all. As long as you don't use those CC that are used in Analog lab mode, you should be fine. You get 10 presets with 27x3 +10 controls

Lots of extra work you need to put in; on top of the 450 USD you already paid for the controller.