help: MIDI sync play/stop

[monokompatibel]

hi there...

origin gets midi signal over USB from DAW, Signal goes over MIDI thru to tempest, tempest  starts running, but origin not. origin stays and does nothing.

yes, seq-mode is switched to sync, arp is switch to sync, midi is switch to Mclock.

What can i do?

thanks a lot for your help.

(another question: can origin start my tempest without using any DAW? Its my dream to play live only with origin and tempest.)

[JacksonP]

Sorry, I cannot help you. But I must say I have similar issues and similar wishes. I've tried to sync it with Spark for example but no success. Maybe it's me, maybe it's Origin or Spark, I don't know...

[tmeracz]

This is the only thread I can find regarding this topic:

In Digital Performer, I am sending MIDI beatclock to the Origin via USB.
I also have Spark loaded as a plugin.

It takes a minimum of 1 bar for any patterns sequenced in the Origin to sync to the rest of my sequencer. Why is this and how can it be tightened up?

[tmeracz]

I can replicate the problem in Ableton Live 9.

[tmeracz]

And I can replicate the problem via USB sync or physical MIDI port.

[Philippe]

Several points to have in  mind there:

1- the internal tempo is derived from the incoming MIDI clock using some kind of software PLL that shows a certain latency to lock on the clock period. It's likely the reason why your Origin takes some time to get in sync. Could you check that the incoming MIDI clock is continuous? By continuous clock I mean that the MIDI CLOCK message 0xF8 is always been sent even before a MIDI_START (0xFA)  and  between  STOP  (0xFB) and CONTINUE (0xFC).

2- I assume that when you write "Origin does not start" you mean the sequencer. Currently, the sequencer can only starts when at least 1 NOTE is active on the slot. If it makes more sense Origin sequencer needs the slot to be "gated", the "gate" being the "or" of all active notes targeting the slot.

Could you explain what would be the behaviour you expect when the  MIDI_START is received?
Do you want all sequencers (each slot of a MULTI owns its own sequencer) to start?
And what about the sound to synthesise? Which note and velocity values?

Thx,
Philippe

[tmeracz]

Thank you for addressing this Philippe
Neither DAW has very much clock control left in it anymore since the porting to OSX.
About the only things I can adjust is clock latency and 24parts per quarter note or 24parts per metronome click.

I will see if locking to the timecode generators directly in the MTP/AV or my TASCAM console will yield any better results.

Since I have your attention, would you please clear up some questions regarding the internal sequencers for me?

Do they transmit any useful information- ie. to control other synths via MIDI or sysex messages?
What is their actual timebase (24ppqn, 96ppqn?) and can they be adjusted?

The problem resolves itself within one bar so it's annoying that I can't have it in sync in DP when I give the sequence one or even 2 bars of pre-roll. The MTP is clearly glowing green on all channels with timecode during this pre-roll.

This will pretty much make the Origin internal sequencers useless if I am scoring to picture and must set a variable tempo map in the Master track of DP.

[Philippe]

Thank you for addressing this Philippe
Neither DAW has very much clock control left in it anymore since the porting to OSX.
About the only things I can adjust is clock latency and 24parts per quarter note or 24parts per metronome click.

I will see if locking to the timecode generators directly in the MTP/AV or my TASCAM console will yield any better results.

Since I have your attention, would you please clear up some questions regarding the internal sequencers for me?

Do they transmit any useful information- ie. to control other synths via MIDI or sysex messages?

No, it doesn't. The Origin sequencer was designed as an emulation of an analog step sequencer which generates gates and CVs.

Also Origin is not able to send MIDI clock. I tried to add this to the 1.4.1 firmware but I had a crash in the lower layer of the OS (in a LINUX driver) and it would have been too long to fix it. And since the 1.4.1 I've been reassigned to other projects...

What is their actual timebase (24ppqn, 96ppqn?) and can they be adjusted?

It's not measured in term of ppqn. It has a fixed resolution of 0.725 milliseconds. At a 120 BPM it is equivalent to about 690 ppqn, and half of that - about  345 ppqn -  at a 240 BPM.

The problem resolves itself within one bar so it's annoying that I can't have it in sync in DP when I give the sequence one or even 2 bars of pre-roll.

Hmmmm. Could you check the midi messages sent to Origin during these 2 pre-roll bars?

The MTP is clearly glowing green on all channels with timecode during this pre-roll.

This will pretty much make the Origin internal sequencers useless if I am scoring to picture and must set a variable tempo map in the Master track of DP.

[tmeracz]

Thank you for clearing that up. It is very functional to itself internally, but I am concerned with how it listens to the outside world :-)

MIDI Monitor shows the following:
02:09:30.947   From Sync Port   SysEx      MOTU 21 bytes   F0 00 00 33 02 50 00 0B 0B 08 00 01 00 02 00 00 00 00 00 02 F7
02:09:31.053   From Sync Port   SysEx      MOTU 18 bytes   F0 00 00 33 02 0C 00 00 10 13 00 00 0F 0F 23 00 00 F7
02:09:31.075   From Sync Port   SysEx      Universal Real Time 11 bytes   F0 7F 13 07 01 60 00 00 20 00 F7
02:09:31.947   From Sync Port   SysEx      MOTU 21 bytes   F0 00 00 33 02 50 00 0B 0B 08 00 01 00 02 00 00 00 00 00 02 F7
02:09:32.053   From Sync Port   SysEx      MOTU 18 bytes   F0 00 00 33 02 0C 00 00 10 13 00 00 0F 0F 23 00 00 F7
02:09:32.075   From Sync Port   SysEx      Universal Real Time 11 bytes   F0 7F 13 07 01 60 00 00 20 00 F7
02:09:32.947   From Sync Port   SysEx      MOTU 21 bytes   F0 00 00 33 02 50 00 0B 0B 08 00 01 00 02 00 00 00 00 00 02 F7
02:09:33.053   From Sync Port   SysEx      MOTU 18 bytes   F0 00 00 33 02 0C 00 00 10 13 00 00 0F 0F 23 00 00 F7
02:09:33.075   From Sync Port   SysEx      Universal Real Time 11 bytes   F0 7F 13 07 01 60 00 00 20 00 F7
02:09:33.947   From Sync Port   SysEx      MOTU 21 bytes   F0 00 00 33 02 50 00 0B 0B 08 00 01 00 02 00 00 00 00 00 02 F7
02:09:34.053   From Sync Port   SysEx      MOTU 18 bytes   F0 00 00 33 02 0C 00 00 10 13 00 00 0F 0F 23 00 00 F7

I don't see the specific messages you were looking for as regards stop/starts.

Incidentally, when I start Spark standalone and tell it to send sync outbound on the MTP, everything is incredibly quick to lock.
MIDI Monitor does not show any extra messages with this method, what could be different from hosting it in a DAW?

[Philippe]

I don't see any MIDI clock in the log. Are you sure that midi clock output is enabled on your midi source?

Here is what I get when Spark is set to send midi clock:
14:09:05.068   From IAC SimuOrigin OUT   Clock      
14:09:05.091   From IAC SimuOrigin OUT   Clock      
14:09:05.115   From IAC SimuOrigin OUT   Clock      
14:09:05.138   From IAC SimuOrigin OUT   Start      
14:09:05.138   From IAC SimuOrigin OUT   Clock      
...
14:09:06.148   From IAC SimuOrigin OUT   Clock      
14:09:06.172   From IAC SimuOrigin OUT   Clock      
14:09:06.183   From IAC SimuOrigin OUT   Stop      
14:09:06.183   From IAC SimuOrigin OUT   Clock      
14:09:06.207   From IAC SimuOrigin OUT   Clock      
...
14:09:07.333   From IAC SimuOrigin OUT   Clock      
14:09:07.356   From IAC SimuOrigin OUT   Clock      
14:09:07.379   From IAC SimuOrigin OUT   Continue      
14:09:07.379   From IAC SimuOrigin OUT   Clock      
14:09:07.391   From IAC SimuOrigin OUT   Clock      
...
14:09:08.796   From IAC SimuOrigin OUT   Clock      
14:09:08.819   From IAC SimuOrigin OUT   Clock      
14:09:08.842   From IAC SimuOrigin OUT   Stop      
14:09:08.842   From IAC SimuOrigin OUT   Clock      
14:09:08.865   From IAC SimuOrigin OUT   Clock      

[hermitnerd]

Not sure if this will answer the question but when I need the Origin sequencer(s) to be sync'd to my DAW I always send 1 MIDI note to the Origin at the point I need it to start. I have had good results with this in Ableton Live.

[Philippe]

Not sure if this will answer the question but when I need the Origin sequencer(s) to be sync'd to my DAW I always send 1 MIDI note to the Origin at the point I need it to start. I have had good results with this in Ableton Live.

Yes, that is consistent with the fact that the sequencer is started by a note on.

[tmeracz]

Thanks for following up with me again, Philippe. Sorry, I've been with my children a lot over the holidays.

I see a lot of messages from you IAC distributing clock.

I have both Ableton and Digital Performer set up to transmit clock, but I'm not sure what MIDI buss that should be showing up on. I have nothing filtered in my MTP or anywhere else in my setup.

The fact that this problem is consistent across both DAW's that I use leads me to think I may need to modify something in my Audio/MIDI setup panel in specific. Is there a set of setup instructions somewhere that I can reference to set this IAC buss up properly on my Mac? I've never had to do this on any other install of any other machine I've used in OSX, but I've seen enough things on this tower behave strangely that I think I may need to check everything over.

[tmeracz]

Also, your sequencer patterns lock from the downbeat of the first note with this kind of MIDI clock streaming?
I am hearing a lot of stuttering in the data. Time based effects like delays and reverb will also Doppler shift in pitch until the second bar.

FYI, my entire room is clocked to 48kHz, could this be affecting MIDI timestamps as well?

I don't see song position pointer data. Currently I have DP and Live set up to do Pattern sync, not song sync.