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Author Topic: New Timetable? Updates frustrating?  (Read 10711 times)

kidharpoon

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New Timetable? Updates frustrating?
« on: January 31, 2011, 06:48:45 pm »
Are there any dates in place for the future updates? Does anyone know when we should have all the templates, and the rest of the modules/features?

I'm considering selling my Origin to buy a Virus TI, then possibly buying one again 2nd hand when its fully updated with all templates...etc

I'm a bit freaked out that an Arturia programmer said the updates are taking so long as there's not enough money to fund quicker development. If this thing stops developing it won't be worth near what I paid for it, and I'd have only gotten half of what I thought I was buying. Its kind of weird that its not bringing them in much money, seeing as Origin orders are backed up by months. Its obviously selling.

I kind of wish they'd have fully developed the features before releasing it. Waiting a few years for all the updates is way too long. I know there are reasons/excuses given by the company, but that really is no help to someone who's shelled out around $2000.

Want to be clear that I'm not attacking the programmers/developers who work hard and communicate with us here on the forum, but I think its a shame that such a new product has already seemingly fallen down the pecking order of priority if this is the case.

Either way, I think the communication from Arturia (Niccolo and forum folk excluded) has been very poor, and I don't doubt that a lot of us would feel better if there was more news on all the updates. Maybe they could just put a short term team together, knuckle down and finish this thing in a couple of months leaving us happy, and them free to work on new products.

Jeruro

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Re: New Timetable? Updates frustrating?
« Reply #1 on: January 31, 2011, 07:46:33 pm »
I'm considering selling my Origin too. The 1.3 update will arrive 2 months later, and the next firmware update in about 6 months or more...and the complete list of features probably in 3 years (considering the are focussing now in Spark)? I think is very urgent for we (customers) an updated milestones document. We are waiting promised features, not new features...

JacksonP

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Re: New Timetable? Updates frustrating?
« Reply #2 on: January 31, 2011, 09:35:59 pm »
Funny thing; now when everybody is selling their units, I am going to get it back...  :-\

I had my unit for about two months and about one month it was under repair and they could not fix it. I had terrible problems with those knobs; all of them breaking up one by one.

Anyway I decided to give it a new chance; I re-ordered it from the seller which gives me 30 days money back guarantee and 3 years warranty. So basically I want to see how it is really made. Reason to go back to this Machine again is because of two things: First, I love the sound of it. It fits perfectly to my setup. Second, I already put 300 euros for its hard case and stand. So without Origin there's no use for them. Maybe I am also kind of a masochist.  ;)

And to be honest, I can see that there's not that much competition on the field of polyphonic/multitimbral analog modeling synths/modules. I thought quite long time about buying Virus TI instead but still I wanted to check Origin one more time.

Obout those updates: For me it's amazing if they do not develop it even harder because they just released the keyboard version, which is quite well recognized in the media and it has its own website (with marketin clowns like mr.Rudess) etc. etc.  ???

synthguy99

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Re: New Timetable? Updates frustrating?
« Reply #3 on: February 01, 2011, 01:18:16 am »
If this thing stops developing it won't be worth near what I paid for it, and I'd have only gotten half of what I thought I was buying.
Pardon me for not understanding you guys, but I just flat out don't get it.

What did you think you were buying?  What is it lacking that keep it from being worth US $2000 plus?

I can see shortcomings.  The volume is too low.  A few units are unreliable.  The effects are about at the stomp box level.

Is it new modules?  I would definitely love to see something in that regard.  A Prophet 5 oscillator and filter ported from their soft synth would be outstanding additions to the module arsenal.  I'd also love to see something show up on the Origin first to make it even more desirable, such as an Oberheim SEM oscillator and filter, and pieces of the OB-Xa and Matrix 12.  Then when hype has been built, Arturia could sell the Oberheim V softsynth.

Is it the templates?  EVERYONE keeps bringing those things up as the main reason the Origin is suddenly useless to them.  I'm frankly stunned at that.  The only template it really needs to have is the CS-80.  Every other instrument can be made in the Origin.  Yes, it's a little tedious, but it's not hard.  Make five or ten patches, and you have templates of your very own, with no need to wait for Arturia to make a cute graphic for you.

Honestly, while I love my Virus KC and will never sell it, the Origin is my go-to synth which makes me forget it.  It not just sounds better, it sounds analog.  The only other VA which gets turned on besides The O is my KORG Radias.  These two units cover just about everything I need to do but six operator FM, and I intend to get a KORG KRONOS to cover that.  And while the KRONOS has some excellent synth models in it, the Origin will most likely be the first unit I resort to when I want to make killer patches for the foreseeable future.  Even if I never see the Oberheim modules or CS-80 template.  ;)

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see more modules and templates produced for it.  But acting like it's a dead box because some new goody isn't made for it every three or four months is just brain dead.  Now, either you guys tricked yourselves into buying something which was of no use, and for no apparent reason, you held onto it for months and years while it gathered dust.

OR, you've been using it all this time to great effect, and have simply grown spoiled and used to it, so perhaps its only sin it has is it's not new anymore.

As for me, I'm still blown away every time I create an instrument on it, and still haven't downloaded the latest update because, to be honest, the Jupiter is my least favorite instrument in it.

Sell it and buy a Virus, it's a free world.  But I bet you miss it in a few days or less.
One day, I want my keyboard studio to be a synth museum like Hans Zimmer's

p.s.  PRAY FOR THIS PLANET!!

Syndromeda

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Re: New Timetable? Updates frustrating?
« Reply #4 on: February 01, 2011, 08:29:53 am »
I also think it's time for a new stable update now, a real update and not version xx of a beta, I even install them anymore, anytime there's something wrong. I lost the fun of installing them.......but I still like my Origin very much, the sound and the layout are superb!
But come guys....give us 1.3 and asap 1.5, make your promises real!
Gr.
Syndromeda
Life is music and music is life.

kidharpoon

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Re: New Timetable? Updates frustrating?
« Reply #5 on: February 01, 2011, 10:38:12 am »
synthguy99:  What your saying here makes sense, but what you fail to understand is that different people work differently and need different things from a machine.

For me personally, I am a professional songwriter and producer, and I often need something very instant, which the templates are handy for. Patching together or creating new and interesting things is a load of fun, and the origin is more than capable right now, but that's not the only thing I need from it. Templates for me are not just a "goody" they're a consumer need, and I'm not the only one who feels like this.

I bought it with the idea that the templates would be quick and easy, but that it also has deep functionality and modular capabilities for when I get some time to myself. I'm not saying its an empty box, but its not delivered on all the necessary fronts.

You imply that people are lame/lazy for using templates, and this happens on a lot of synth forums about things like presets, and I just don't buy it. Its snobbery and ignorance. I know of huge artists who have used presets in their biggest tunes, and I don't see using templates as a cop out either. The fact is, its all about creative workflow and how you need to use the thing. Templates will speed things up for those of us who need to work quickly, and I'm not ashamed that I bought it with them in mind.

Besides that, the fact is, I bought something that's incomplete and there's no sign of delivery on what I need. Its like buying a chicken mayo sandwich and waiting for the mayo. I wouldn't buy a chicken sandwich with no mayo if I'd have known in the first place.

To me, this makes total sense and I hope you understand. Whilst I am using the Origin, and have found a place for it with my workarounds. I feel that for 2000 EURO (not Dollars) workarounds are unacceptable, and if I find a quicker way of doing things it may just fade out of use which would be a shame.





synthguy99

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Re: New Timetable? Updates frustrating?
« Reply #6 on: February 02, 2011, 12:55:29 am »
kidharpoon, I understand what you're saying.  But I have a feeling that what I said completely escaped you.

First, on the chicken sandwich analogy.  I find chicken sandwiches to be rather tasty but mundane.  Let's go for an analogy which is a little more apropos, because frankly, the only thing which I can compare the Origin to is a Nord Modular, Sonic-core Solaris, Kurzweil or the upcoming KORG KRONOS - yes, all caps evidently, like OASYS.  How about a Ferrari?

They're awesome cars, but most don't even have air conditioning, which just about every car since the 70s had.  Does that make it worthless, especially if you wanted a cushy, luxury ride like a Lexus or Mercedes-Benz?  Yes.  But, if your goal is to throw a car around turns like a LeMans prototype, those other two makes just won't cut it.

On templates:  I hope you all realize something.  The templates you want are a little different from what you can make in the Origin by dragging in modules from the list.  I assume they're optimized a bit so they use less code than the equivalent we'd build ourselves.  The obvious example is the CS-80 I keep bringing up, because you can't quite make one without hitting the CPU limit, so you have to cut some corners and leave stuff off.  The template should run well and offer every feature the CS-80 V softsynth does.

However, the templates out now such as the Jupiter 8, as well as those to come like the ARP 2600, can be made easily with the existing modules.  In fact, the JP-8 and MiniMg can be improved by scratch building and then adding new modules.  The MiniMg was sometimes linked to an ARP synth or Oberheim SEM, and you can do this with the ARP and Origin modules.

And this brings me to another point.  When you build a patch using Origin modules, you aren't just making patches, you're building instruments.  Surely you guys can't be so utterly strapped for time that you can't spend a day here or there making patches with these modules, even generic placeholder patches?  When you do, you have a... wait for it...


TEMPLATE!


Make as many as you want.  Open one of the patch/templates you made, tweak it, perhaps change a module or add a couple, and save it to a new location!

Guys, this should be obvious.  ;)  Yes, I very much want the CS-80, but THIS is why I bought the Origin, so I could create a number of synthesizers which can only exist in The O.  Making a Jupiter or ARP 2600 from scratch just takes fifteen minutes or so, and then, voila!  But just about all my time is spent going beyond those vintage lovelies to make modular synths of my own creation, and seeing how close I can get to Prophets and Oberheims.  And surprisingly, I can get very close.
One day, I want my keyboard studio to be a synth museum like Hans Zimmer's

p.s.  PRAY FOR THIS PLANET!!

Philippe

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Re: New Timetable? Updates frustrating?
« Reply #7 on: February 02, 2011, 09:29:13 am »
What would you think of a library of pre-wired modular - that is without a specific GUI - templates instead (or side by side with) the full recreation templates?
« Last Edit: February 02, 2011, 09:58:55 am by philwick »
Origin Lead  Developer

Syndromeda

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Re: New Timetable? Updates frustrating?
« Reply #8 on: February 02, 2011, 10:25:07 am »
Looks good and would be a great help instead of starting from scratch.
But please....make this come true.....and not in 2 years, it really is time to give us a new stable update (as 1.2.5 is very stable).
Regards,
Life is music and music is life.

synthguy99

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Re: New Timetable? Updates frustrating?
« Reply #9 on: February 02, 2011, 02:41:45 pm »
A library of pre-wired "templates" would be a great idea.  I keep forgetting that some people just don't grasp how to hook all these fancy synth blocks together.  It is tedious and a little time consuming to do this by hand, so maybe the programming team could think of a few combos like a Mg 55, a baby CS-80, an ARP "Chroma", an "Oberheim Matrix-12", "Prophet T-8" etc.  I'd especially like to see someone's version of a CS-80, to see if mine can be improved.

And people, just to reiterate, each patch in the Origin is a separate instrument, and therefore is a de facto template.  Spend a little time opening each patch up in the editor and seeing how they're wired together.  Especially those that you like the sounds of.  When you grasp what the programmer has done, you can use it as an example to make your own, maybe simpler so you can have more polyphony.  Or maybe added to for an even bigger, more complex sound.

I'm crazy busy lately, so I can't spend as much time on music these days, but I'm hoping to get some free time in a few weeks.  Maybe I could whip up some examples and post them.

And by the way, I've been known to use some presets in my music as well.  I just prefer to roll my own most of the time.  ;)
« Last Edit: February 02, 2011, 02:51:16 pm by synthguy99 »
One day, I want my keyboard studio to be a synth museum like Hans Zimmer's

p.s.  PRAY FOR THIS PLANET!!

kidharpoon

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Re: New Timetable? Updates frustrating?
« Reply #10 on: February 02, 2011, 04:45:37 pm »
Synthguy: I totally get that Origin is for building new instruments, but when I'm in the middle of a track and I need a certain sound, I don't want to have to build an instrument and then find the sound within it. Normally I think, "my Prophet 08 can get what I want" or "my Voyager can get that". With the Origin I've not got that yet, apart from using the Mg and J8 Templates.

I concede that this is most likely because I'm not an expert synthesist, and as my knowledge expands so will my use of the deeper functions within Origin. That goes without saying, but I did buy it with the Templates in mind for work, with an eye on using the modular capabilities to expand my knowledge in my spare time. So for me, the Templates are the starting block, whereas for you they're probably not necessary.

Either way, I know I would really get the most out of the Origin from them, and I think a lot of people feel the same.

Phil: A library of Pre-Wired Modulars could be really useful. Especially if people like SynthGuy here can come up with a few not so obvious combos.

synthguy99

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Re: New Timetable? Updates frustrating?
« Reply #11 on: February 02, 2011, 10:18:45 pm »
kid H, I concede your point.  Although, I have to say that if you have a Prophet and Voyager handy, as well as any other analogs, not only should you be including them in your music anyway, I'm also extremely jealous!  ;D

Anyhow, maybe it would be a good idea to request some template types in here.  I have been wanting to whip up something new and interesting on The O, so maybe this would be a good excuse to fire it up again, and update.

I have a feeling that this will turn into a "Can you get this sound?" thread.  If it does, you'll have to be patient as well as very specific.  Edit: and not wait for me, I'm way busy.  And I hope you guys understand that if you want a "piano pad" patch from a Chicago song, what you need is a rompler like a KORG M3 or Kurzweil PC3.  But as far as template types, I can think of a few good examples:

  • ARP Odyssey, 2600 and Chroma
  • Prophet 5, 10, T8, 08 and VS
  • Oberheim 8 Voice, OB-Xa and Matrix-12
  • PolyMg (maybe?) and MemoryMg
  • Yamaha CS-80, sort of
  • Mg Modular
  • Roland System 100 and 700

Any other suggestions?  Like a modular with "x" number of oscillators and "y" filters and types?

Edit again:  I've been fiddling with the Origin quite a bit lately and scribbling notes for some "template" patches.  These aren't going to be killer must-haves, but decent patches useful in a few musical contexts.  Mostly, they're going to be starting points based on a few synthesizer archetypes to use in creating your own patches like I mentioned above.  I've forgotten just how darn fun it is to play with this thing, and it's going to be a while.  But someday not too long from now I intend to upload my goodies and make a post about it.  ;)
« Last Edit: February 05, 2011, 06:48:36 am by synthguy99 »
One day, I want my keyboard studio to be a synth museum like Hans Zimmer's

p.s.  PRAY FOR THIS PLANET!!

synthguy99

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Re: New Timetable? Updates frustrating?
« Reply #12 on: February 08, 2011, 01:36:39 am »
I just thought I'd nudge this idea of a few "template" patches from the team.  I'm going ahead with some programming of my own, and am making some basic instruments along the lines of my idea list above.  These patches might sound a bit underwhelming, but the idea is to share some pre-made instruments along the lines of existing analogs, or just useful archetypes to use ready made to tweak on your own.

I would like to make a personal request for someone to make their own versions of the Yamaha CS-80, as this is an instrument type I want to use very much.  And if someone can make one with 10 note polyphony or better, I'd be all over that!  ;D
One day, I want my keyboard studio to be a synth museum like Hans Zimmer's

p.s.  PRAY FOR THIS PLANET!!

kidharpoon

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Re: New Timetable? Updates frustrating?
« Reply #13 on: February 09, 2011, 06:31:30 pm »
Hey Synthguy, been trying to make an Arp Odyssey, so be good to see how you do it, and potentially how some of the Arturia guys would do it.

I think the idea of pre-wired user modulars (can someone come up with a neater thing to call it) is much more exciting than user patches, and could really develop the Origin community too.

I would upload my attempt at an Odyssey, but I've never used one and was going from what I'd read, plus my wiring's probably wrong so I'm gonna wait to see Synthguys.

Purely cosmetic, but possibly in the future (the very very distant future seeing how much we have to wait for) this someone could develop some sort of GUI creator. SO you can create a look/feel to your instrument too.

Just getting carried away here.

Synthguy - if you've got some ideas for module/wiring configs, post them up here, and maybe between us we can build them and start the User Instrument Library....

synthguy99

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Re: New Timetable? Updates frustrating?
« Reply #14 on: February 10, 2011, 01:21:28 am »
Thanks for the encouragement, kidharpoon.  ;D  Sorry someone decided to smite you.  And... prepare for a typical lengthy Synthguy essay...

For much of my synth life, I'd buy an instrument and spend many weeks ripping out preset patches and making my own, to really get to know it and see what I could get out of it.  And just sitting down with a machine and seeing what it's capable of is a lot of fun.  It helped that I didn't care for many of the patches the programmers made for it.

But things changed over the past decade.  For one thing, synth makers spent the money to hire great programming teams, like KORG and Kurzweil, or hired out some big names in electronic music like Rick Wakeman or Herbie Hancock.  Thus, the patches became much cooler, and harder to discard and ignore.  Plus, I got to where I began programming mostly for the pieces I was composing.  A part needed a unique sound I didn't have on hand, so I'd play around with them and create some.  So I've kind of fallen out of the habit of programming for the sheer fun of it.  I'm hoping this little project helps me rediscover my "groove."

I've tended to approach my programming in stages.  In other words, rather than make a huge instrument which is more or less like the original as a whole, I'v e been doing patches which are a bit more restricted to those most useful to the type of sounds being programmed for.

So for instance with the Odyssey, I include all the useful modules: the LFO, the S/H module, the oscillators, the dual filters, the envelope generators - though I use two full ADSRs in my patches.  I leave off the ring modulator and perhaps something else.  I'm making another "instrument" with the ring modulator to experiment with ring mod atonal sounds, because wiring it in and not using it has proven a bit too complicated.  So specialized patches just for it is not just easier, but probably easier to work with.

In the case of "modularized" keyboards such as the ARP Chroma and Oberheim Matrix-12, where the patching is done through a wild maze of computer controlled junctions, it's proving a bit more complicated than I expected.  Rather than being like the Odyssey or Jupiter 8, where the controllers like LFOs and envelopes can be routed all over the place, you can change the entire voice architecture in the machine, just like a modular synth.  This is both very cool and daunting at the same time, because I'm not quite sure what to make out of all these parts!

I decided to start from scratch rather than pick a patch that sounds cool and close to what I was after.  After all, I gave you guys some small heck over your reluctance to dive in and play with this box.  And I found out that it's a lot more work than I remembered!  But still, it's not hard when you get going for a bit.

A few tips:  I approach things based on the sounds I'm making.  Suppose I want to make a violin patch, which I did.  Acoustic instruments like violins are played differently than the electronic stuff.  A violinist will pull away from the root note for vibrato, and usually no more than a semitone.  Plus, the vibrato made with their fingers is like a sinewave, while a triangle might sound a little better for electronic sounds.  So when I set up an LFO to provide sine vibrato with key pressure, I also add in some of that pressure control to pull the pitch of the oscillators down with it, so that the peak of the sinewave puts the sound at the original pitch, perhaps just a bit over, and at the bottom of the sweep, it's no more than a semitone down.  Slight vibrato works better than strong vibrato for acoustic sounds.  You can also play with adding a bit of negative vibrato to the lowpass filter, as well as the output.

Guitar is the opposite, as guitarists push and stretch the strings with their fingers, causing the pitch to go up, except in the case of a "whammy bar," which I believe can go up or down in pitch.

Winds like flutes, oboes and saxes, as well as brass, are different yet.  While there is some vibrato caused by their expressive playing, most of the tonal change comes from dulling the sound a bit in a tremolo.  So what you actually want to do is add some negative sinewave to the lowpass filter, and a very slight amount to the oscillators.  Again, perhaps a bit to the outputs as well.  I tend to "play" my vibratos manually with the joystick or pitch wheel though, because that's how the actual player does it, and it sounds a bit more authentic.

Most all of these patches though are purely synthetic, with just a passing similarity to something "real," like synstrings and brass.  Hopefully they will sound remotely inviting to encourage you guys to pop open the hood and see how they're made.  And I'm going to make a BIG post about the details of these patches, going into the controllers I set up and how the patch responds to them.  How I play them and thus why I built them the way I did.  So you won't just get a bunch of patches, but a little programming lesson along with them.  Cool, huh?   ;)

And I'll say more about that "design philosophy" post in a day or so, how I would go about building a modular synth in the Origin.

Well, back at it I go.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2011, 02:59:16 am by synthguy99 »
One day, I want my keyboard studio to be a synth museum like Hans Zimmer's

p.s.  PRAY FOR THIS PLANET!!

 

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