Spark Issue PT10 Mac

[stuey]

HI Kevin

No problem...

Could it be where Pro Tools looks for plug ins and plug in settings when opening a session?

/Library/Application Support/Avid/Audio/Plug-Ins/
/Library/Application Support/Digidesign/Plug-Ins

For example, open a session whilst holding shift (All plug ins deactivated). Does it open and show a deactivated plug in?

Thanks, Stu

[Demozic]

Could it be where Pro Tools looks for plug ins and plug in settings when opening a session?

/Library/Application Support/Avid/Audio/Plug-Ins/
/Library/Application Support/Digidesign/Plug-Ins

PT10 looks into both plug-ins folders.

If the plug-in manufacturer did his job properly :
- If both RTAS (inside /Library/Application Support/Digidesign/Plug-Ins folder) AND AAX (inside/Library/Application Support/Digidesign/Plug-Ins  folder) versions are installed
-> only 1 plug-in should show up in PT10's plugin list :
- either AAX version (if AAX is 32 bits-compatible)
 or
- RTAS version (if AAX is not 32 bits compatible) but not both.

The simple fact that  2 spark plug-in are visible in the plugin list means PT10 consider them as 2 different products.

I am pretty sure PT (whatever version) looks at both manufacturer name AND plug-in name to consider that plug-ins are the same product or a different one. If a manufacturer decide to change its plug-in name from version to version, it totally breaks old session compatibility down. The same appears if the manufacturer decide to change its manufacturer name.

Spark (RTAS) reports "Arturia rtu" as manufacturer name
while Spark (AAX) reports "Arturia" as manufacturer name

So PT considers those 2 plug-ins as separate products.

And even if I let both AAX and RTAS version in their respective folder, PT10 shows only one plugin. Only Spark is doubled.

I have a lot of sessions create with PT7/8/9/10 (saved as RTAS) and they correctly open with PT11 as far as the AAX plugin name correctly match the RTAS plugin name. Unfortunately, most manufacturers are changing names when they upgrade their plug-in (ie : v1 to v2), which makes sense if their GUI and parameters structure completely change. But here, it is the exactly same plug-in version (v1.7.x).

For example, open a session whilst holding shift (All plug ins deactivated). Does it open and show a deactivated plug in?

No need to hold shift while opening PT.

If the plug-in doesn't exist or isn't installed, the session still opens correctly but the "non-installed" plug-ins are deactivated (italic). And normally all data informations about this plug-ins (setting, automation) are preserved.

So when I open a "PT10+Spark-saved" session inside PT11, the session open correctly but Spark is deactivated and impossible to reactivate (a warning message like "the plug-in doesn't exist" appears). But I can open a new Spark instance with the AAX version.

[stuey]

The simple fact that  2 spark plug-in are visible in the plugin list means PT10 consider them as 2 different products.

Yes, I sent some screen grabs over to Kevin a while back explaining this, showing the 'rtu' and the conventional 'Arturia' menus.

No need to hold shift while opening PT.

If the plug-in doesn't exist or isn't installed, the session still opens correctly but the "non-installed" plug-ins are deactivated (italic). And normally all data informations about this plug-ins (setting, automation) are preserved.

Indeed, but it's a nice way to diagnose problem plug ins, either graphical problems or otherwise.

And even if I let both AAX and RTAS version in their respective folder, PT10 shows only one plugin. Only Spark is doubled.

What versions are both plug ins? Did you upgrade to version 2, or do a clean install of version 2. I haven't tried this myself, but I'm sure if you delete the other 1.7.x version from /Library/Application Support/Digidesign/Plug-Ins. Then install a clean version 2, you should find that you only have 1 plug in. As I think Kevin has mentioned from another thread, the installer doesn't delete any legacy versions, hence upgrading to the AAX version (Spark2) the old rtu RTAS are still present in /Library/Application Support/Digidesign/Plug-Ins as well as the newly installed AAX that resides /Library/Application Support/Avid/Audio/Plug-Ins/

After putting my Spark AAX plug in, into /Library/Application Support/Avid/Audio/Plug-Ins (Unused) I now only have the correct one to choose from. I'm still using 10.3.9 (I upgraded)and not 11 but I'm sure it's just an installer error.

Stu

[Demozic]

And even if I let both AAX and RTAS version in their respective folder, PT10 shows only one plugin. Only Spark is doubled.

My mistake if it is not clear. I was talking in a general way => I should've written :
"Usually, with all other manufacturer plugin that providing both RTAS and AAX 64bits plug-ins (but not AAX32 bits compatible), PT10 only shows one plugin. No need to remove AAX from the AAX plug-in folder".

What versions are both plug ins? Did you upgrade to version 2, or do a clean install of version 2. I haven't tried this myself, but I'm sure if you delete the other 1.7.x version from /Library/Application Support/Digidesign/Plug-Ins. Then install a clean version 2, you should find that you only have 1 plug in. As I think Kevin has mentioned from another thread, the installer doesn't delete any legacy versions, hence upgrading to the AAX version (Spark2) the old rtu RTAS are still present in /Library/Application Support/Digidesign/Plug-Ins as well as the newly installed AAX that resides /Library/Application Support/Avid/Audio/Plug-Ins/

I am using Spark v1.7.2. I didn't install Spark 2 yet. To me Spark 2 is a new product and is also AAX only.
I don't want to remove RTAS as I want to open old session (made with PT9 and PT10) and be sure they will open in PT11.

But anyway, I will save my settings using Spark library and open it back in PT11 using a new Spark instance.
I don't have any automations on those tracks so I won't loose datas.

The other option I have is to use AU version inside VEP (that certainly what I will do in the future instead of using AAX).

I will try Spark2 later but not with my main OS.

[stuey]

I will try Spark2 later but not with my main OS.

Brave

I've not dared yet, have it on my laptop mind. If all the things are going to be ironed out, Spark 2 should be ok. I do still think that some hardware computability is lacking but hopefully with the next update things should be getting better. I've given some suggestions to Kevin and we'll wait and see what happens

Stu 

[stuey]

to add...

Mainly the problem here is the graphical interface of the Arturia plugs. Test with the window open and then closed. Spark suffers from massive audio drop outs, as does the Oberheim and the Mg modular.
Stu

[Demozic]

Just an update on my experience :

After support team contacted me, I made a try on Spark2.

First, I was wrong to consider it as a different product. It actually replaces spark 1 (plugin name remains "Spark").

The good news is Spark 2 is compatible with both PT10 and PT11 :
=> it correctly open previous insances made with AAX version (meaning made with PT11 as Spark 1.7.x wasn't PT10 compatible).

BUT :
=> it still not open directly session created with Spark RTAS (.dpm)

Apart from all of this, I changed my mind and I am really enthusiast with Spark2 update :
I like the new GUI and new features, even if I discovered few bugs.
The new GUI is more "epured" (no more animation) and the old VDM/EDM GUI is still there and compatible with the 1st Spark Controller.
So I hope it would also help having better stability and performances.

But, first, I need to "convert" all my library. I don't have that many, but I must open all my old session to be sure. And to do this, I had to get back to v1.7.2.

So, personally, and for people who have tons of Spark RTAS sessions, I don't recommend to update to Spark2 straight away (v1.7.2 and v2 can coexist but are sharing many files => so v1.7.2 often crashes, especially when attempting to open library browser).

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
BEFORE updating to Spark2 :

1/ make a backup copy of your library (for safety)
(NB : by defaut located in [System HD]/Library/Arturia/Spark/Spark Library/)

2/ (option) I advice to open each PT session that uses Spark RTAS with PT10 ; and add your spark project name in each instrument track's comment (to remind later when you will load Spark2 AAX)

3/ (really important) export each of your spark project, 1 by 1, as ".spk" (it is a unique embedded file containing all needed files). Later, you will import them into Spark2.
follow this link (even for Spark CDM)
NB : You can do that with PT10, or with Spark Standalone

4/ (option) Make a copy of Spark.dpm somewhere*
( Just in case you'll need it to re-open an older RTAS session later)
NB : loading dpm version won't work well but could help in some situations

5/ Then you're ready to update to Spark2 (clean update recommended)

(* typically : " /Library/Application Support/Digidesign/Plug-Ins (Unused) " )
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

I hope it would help PT users...

[Kevin]

Hi Demozic,
thanks for this feedback.
Really appreciating all the time you must have passed to achieve to this results.

I think the incompatibility is between the RTAS and the AAX version of Spark and probably the reason is because of the wrong manufacturer name ('rtu') of the RTAS version.

One thing I do not understand in your post is why you say it is needed to export your user project and import them back later?
Can you give me some details?

Kevin

[stuey]

I think this is specifically talking about Pro Tools plug in setting files.

to add...

Mainly the problem here is the graphical interface of the Arturia plugs. Test with the window open and then closed. Spark suffers from massive audio drop outs, as does the Oberheim and the Mg modular.
Stu

Whereas when these plug in windows are closed, plug in behaves normally.

[stuey]

I think the incompatibility is between the RTAS and the AAX version of Spark and probably the reason is because of the wrong manufacturer name ('rtu') of the RTAS version.
Kevin

I imagine a typo then?  A'rtu'ria. Just out of curiosity. If that is the case, would it have just sat in the normal arturia menu, given that Pro Tools assigns the manufacturer by it's plug in metadata

Stuart 

[Kevin]

I imagine a typo then?

Yep  .

[stuey]

I imagine a typo then?

Yep  .

It happens Kevin A happy accident however. Gives separation with the other plug in. Although I removed my AAX so i always go to the correct plug in.
Stuart

[Demozic]

One thing I do not understand in your post is why you say it is needed to export your user project and import them back later?
Can you give me some details?

1/ First to prevent from having compatibility issue between Spark v1.7 (or less) version and future Spark2 install.

2/ As Spark2 isn't RTAS compatible, once Spark2 is installed, it won't directly open back PT sessions created with Spark RTAS (except using the old v1.7.2 dpm in PT10, but with lots of issues). The PT session will open but (old) Spark instances will be deactivated* (not recognized due to this manufacturer name issue). Then opening a new Spark2 instance and reimport user project (if not done with standalone) should work.

(*with either PT10 or PT11)

NB : the process is the same if users want to open a old PT10 session into PT11 with Spark1.7.2 AAX.

3/ Also, I experienced lots of crashes with some (sort of) corrupted Spark project (saved with previous v1.7, or v1.6). It is certainly due to a mess with my Spark Library folder. So, normally .spk should skipped those issues (rather than directly open an old library).

In the future, I won't move my Spark Library anymore (even if I hate having samples on my System drive). I will simply make a safety backup in my Sample HDD but will use the default Spark Library path.

4/ It is also an advice from David (from your Arturia support team) who sent me the export library link.

I hope it is clearer.

[Kevin]

Ok I understand.
I was asking that because Spark 2 is compatible with Spark 1.7 projects.

[Demozic]

I was asking that because Spark 2 is compatible with Spark 1.7 projects.

Yes, you're right. But I think this method is safer.

Also, I saw some sort of temp files in raw Spark project files that aren't exported with the .spk  (certainly to convert sample rate of audio files to the sample rate of the session)
=> .spk seems cleaner => no special cases, so certainly less subject to bug or crash when importing to Spark2 (or any Spark version).