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Author Topic: Yamaha/Arturia HARDWARE CS-80 reissue.  (Read 13051 times)

kidgloves2

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Yamaha/Arturia HARDWARE CS-80 reissue.
« on: July 17, 2006, 11:39:40 am »
Now that Arturia has a relationship with Yamaha, How about turning the CS-80 soft synth into an actual hardware recreation. With all the bells and whistles that Arturia has come up with. The original was all analog, but the reissue could be all cpu based. Basically Arturias version that you can touch and Yamaha can make it.

Would anyone here buy it? I'll take 3.

poropat

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Re: Yamaha/Arturia HARDWARE CS-80 reissue.
« Reply #1 on: July 17, 2006, 12:03:42 pm »
Quote from: "kidgloves2"
Now that Arturia has a relationship with Yamaha, How about turning the CS-80 soft synth into an actual hardware recreation. With all the bells and whistles that Arturia has come up with. The original was all analog, but the reissue could be all cpu based. Basically Arturias version that you can touch and Yamaha can make it.

Would anyone here buy it? I'll take 3.


If the original was analog, I think a reissue would need to be analog
too, but digitally controlled, for a better reliability, and keeping
voices detuned too, as the original, to keep the character of this fantastic instrument. I would take 6  :wink:
But unfortunately yamaha seems cold for such project. :cry:
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kidgloves2

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Yamaha/Arturia HARDWARE CS-80 reissue.
« Reply #2 on: July 17, 2006, 03:05:58 pm »
An analog reissue would be great in a perfect world, but VERY expensive. (I wouldn't be against it though, I love what Mg has done) Analog modeling has come a very long way, so it would be more realistic and stable. Modeling is the future.  :wink:

I played with the new Roland SH-201 analog modeling synth and it sounds amazing. That's where I got the idea for Arturia to team up with Yamaha and reissue the CS-80. Have everything hands on and layed out like the original. Except with modern features too, just like Arturia's software. And " keeping voices detuned too, as the original, to keep the character of this fantastic instrument" could be modeled as well. Also, have it multitimberal so you can layer sounds.

I'm drooling thinking about it.

Anyone think a petition would get them thinking?

omissis

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Yamaha/Arturia HARDWARE CS-80 reissue.
« Reply #3 on: July 17, 2006, 10:52:27 pm »
Quote from: "kidgloves2"
An analog reissue would be great in a perfect world, but VERY expensive. (I wouldn't be against it though, I love what Mg has done) Analog modeling has come a very long way, so it would be more realistic and stable. Modeling is the future.  :wink:

I played with the new Roland SH-201 analog modeling synth and it sounds amazing. That's where I got the idea for Arturia to team up with Yamaha and reissue the CS-80. Have everything hands on and layed out like the original. Except with modern features too, just like Arturia's software. And " keeping voices detuned too, as the original, to keep the character of this fantastic instrument" could be modeled as well. Also, have it multitimberal so you can layer sounds.

I'm drooling thinking about it.

Anyone think a petition would get them thinking?



Are you ready to pay as much as for a brand new BMW serie-5 ?  :wink:
Well I actually am not... :(
One of the most important things about the CS80 was its fantastic, outstanding interface, that interface, that kind of velocity and aftertouch which still stay unique in history really make that instrument something still ahead of its times; in this concern I believe that the interface plays a major role than the sound engine: therefore I could be glad even if somebody will come out one day with a controller able to get that kind of ease of usage , that kind of ribbon controller etc.. the sound engine could be perfectly reproduced with the actual digital means, the only problem is , if you want to get that sound at its 100% you have to spend a big amount of time for testing and comparisons which isn't the optimum as for economical valuability, and this is or could be the case of Arturia
Max

a CS-80Vist

poropat

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Yamaha/Arturia HARDWARE CS-80 reissue.
« Reply #4 on: July 18, 2006, 06:40:01 pm »
Quote
Modeling is the future


IMHO, modeling is not the future, it's only a part of the future.
Digital devices were supposed to exist but not to kill analog devices
even if it happened anyway.
A reissue of an analog CS80 version 2, would be expensive, with
classic technology, but with FPAA could become possible
(Field programmable analog array), for a lower cost.
This, it's for the sound engine.
For the user Interface I agree with Max, it's another very important
aspect of this synthesizer and would need to be recreated to keep
it's character.
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poropat

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Yamaha/Arturia HARDWARE CS-80 reissue.
« Reply #5 on: July 18, 2006, 07:22:48 pm »
Quote
Modeling is the future


(second shot)

I think it could be, if modeling could be applied to each analog
component of the synthesizer, each capacitor, each op amp, each resistor, etc... instead of modeling a wave.
It means each components could be modeled in free running,
like in reality.
I know, here I'm dreaming, with our actual technology it's
absolutely impossible.
But if a day, quantic computers would become reality, I think this, could
become possible. Such kind of modeling I would trust, and I think our ears couldn't make difference with the real thing.
But for the near future I would trust more FPAA.

Arturia did a very good job with their VST's but now, their main constraint
are the speed of CPU's and speed of memory exchanges, it's the limit
of actual modeling, even inside a separated hardware.
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kidgloves2

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Yamaha/Arturia HARDWARE CS-80 reissue.
« Reply #6 on: July 18, 2006, 07:37:45 pm »
Poropat, I definitely agree with you. I wish it could be done.

I would love to see a lot of these old analog synths rereleased in this way.

At least for now, we have software.....which is very good. I just wish I could reach in and touch the soft synths  8)

omissis

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Yamaha/Arturia HARDWARE CS-80 reissue.
« Reply #7 on: July 18, 2006, 08:02:09 pm »
Kid
If all's gonna go the way I predict I believe we could enjoy a better version of the CS80V not too late ;)
Max

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poropat

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Yamaha/Arturia HARDWARE CS-80 reissue.
« Reply #8 on: July 18, 2006, 08:13:55 pm »
me too I would like to see analog again. :D
Even I'm fond of CS80V, I bought a real CS80, but I still continue
tu use the CS80V too, because the two worlds have their own
advantage. The problem with old analogs, it's we don't know
how long they will survive, and now, few people could repair them.
Even components we can't find. The solution could be modeling, but
to emulate 100% the real thing, it's not possible yet, and the question
of the user interface is important as Max says.
With a CS80V to use the polyaftertouch, we need to find old keyboards
as Ensonic ASR10, General music S series etc... and we even can't reach
the expressivity of the real CS.
The problem now, it's, industries only consider to make money, and don't consider so much the cultural values.
The same problem is about to happen to photographers, argentic paper
seems about to be given up. Digital cameras are very convenient to
take picture with family, but real artists who make real art pictures
will miss this very much, as we miss analog gears. :?
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poropat

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Yamaha/Arturia HARDWARE CS-80 reissue.
« Reply #9 on: July 18, 2006, 08:14:46 pm »
Quote from: "omissis"
Kid
If all's gonna go the way I predict I believe we could enjoy a better version of the CS80V not too late ;)


This is a very good new Max, thanks :D
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omissis

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Yamaha/Arturia HARDWARE CS-80 reissue.
« Reply #10 on: July 19, 2006, 01:23:05 pm »
Quote from: "poropat"
me too I would like to see analog again. :D
Even I'm fond of CS80V, I bought a real CS80, but I still continue
tu use the CS80V too, because the two worlds have their own
advantage. The problem with old analogs, it's we don't know
how long they will survive, and now, few people could repair them.
Even components we can't find. The solution could be modeling, but
to emulate 100% the real thing, it's not possible yet, and the question
of the user interface is important as Max says.
With a CS80V to use the polyaftertouch, we need to find old keyboards
as Ensonic ASR10, General music S series etc... and we even can't reach
the expressivity of the real CS.
The problem now, it's, industries only consider to make money, and don't consider so much the cultural values.
The same problem is about to happen to photographers, argentic paper
seems about to be given up. Digital cameras are very convenient to
take picture with family, but real artists who make real art pictures
will miss this very much, as we miss analog gears. :?


Luckily though, it seems that Yamaha could be able to burn some spare iG chips again if people will show there is a real interest around the CS synthesizers.
Future is another thing anyway. I repeat, the same result can be achieved with the modern technologies, taking also advantage from the fact that many of the drawbacks can be dramatically reduced. There is a dark side of this though: this needs a labour of love, meaning a lot of care for details and few concerns about deadlines; it's not possible to get the optimum with closed timelines because you always have to hurry about the project, so just like the old CS a lot of research and dedication should be needed to achieve the same results, hope Arturia will succeed with this
Max

a CS-80Vist

poropat

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Yamaha/Arturia HARDWARE CS-80 reissue.
« Reply #11 on: July 20, 2006, 12:24:23 am »
Quote
Luckily though, it seems that Yamaha could be able to burn some spare iG chips again if people will show there is a real interest around the CS synthesizers.


I Know Kent Spong is making a petition about this but I don't know where
it needs to sign.

Quote
Future is another thing anyway. I repeat, the same result can be achieved with the modern technologies, taking also advantage from the fact that many of the drawbacks can be dramatically reduced. There is a dark side of this though: this needs a labour of love, meaning a lot of care for details and few concerns about deadlines; it's not possible to get the optimum with closed timelines because you always have to hurry about the project, so just like the old CS a lot of research and dedication should be needed to achieve the same results, hope Arturia will succeed with this


I agree with you Max, but seems now, people are unable to work with
love, because workers are under presure from their company to give
a quick result, companies are under pressure for making money
quickly to pay more and more taxes which leed them to weakness.
I think it's because of this, we stick so much on vintage works,
because in such period, people had more time to work with love
as what you say, and released such fantastics instruments with
less technology. More technology would be supposed to bring us
a better quality than before, but the machine seems broken.
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silicium_Ne.3s2.3p2

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Re: Yamaha/Arturia HARDWARE CS-80 reissue.
« Reply #12 on: November 04, 2008, 10:55:26 am »
Has anyone the schematics of the Yamaha chips or at least full schematics of CS-80 and chip samples that could be reverse-engineered ? Given today's ever growing processing power, I would like to take a peek at analog simulation of such a synthesizer if I had a spice model. I have experience in characterization and mixed analog/digital simulation of  full-custom VLSI circuits, then failed to achieve a phd for this because of several human factors in a dull lab  :P, but I am looking for a new job and working with a music company would be the best motivation  8)

Sweep

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Re: Yamaha/Arturia HARDWARE CS-80 reissue.
« Reply #13 on: November 04, 2008, 11:52:06 am »
Re the last two posts:

If you join the Yahoo CS80 group I think they've uploaded schematics.

Kent Spong may also be on there. If he isn't, say so here and I'll email someone he works for to ask about the petition.

omissis

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Re: Yamaha/Arturia HARDWARE CS-80 reissue.
« Reply #14 on: November 18, 2008, 10:05:42 am »
Has anyone the schematics of the Yamaha chips or at least full schematics of CS-80 and chip samples that could be reverse-engineered ? Given today's ever growing processing power, I would like to take a peek at analog simulation of such a synthesizer if I had a spice model. I have experience in characterization and mixed analog/digital simulation of  full-custom VLSI circuits, then failed to achieve a phd for this because of several human factors in a dull lab  :P, but I am looking for a new job and working with a music company would be the best motivation  8)

You're running too fast: SPICE is excellent for building up a functional reproduction but some results in analog have differences in digital:

1. you can't output the "real" CS waveforms which are almost "digital" or mathematical and you know, mathematical waveforms=aliasing hell

2. you should simulate "jurassic digital" multiplexing-demultiplexing to create some functions which rely on how note are generated (KAS and SH boards ) and let them work the correct way (Sustain I - II) ; moreover there are implemented some components, digital ones which , being "jurassic" use a lot of feedbacks for comparations and in digital feedback= stack overflow=CRASH!

Then most of the work can be easy (make each single voice card adjustable) and about tuning, I tell it for the nth time, the CS80 is a STABLE machine, more stable than every Mg or Prophet outta here: it's in the nature of the linear VCO to get a lot less influences when warmed up well ; only the first dozens of models suffered from drift (maybe wrong components into the first oscillators) ; it was easiliy fixable by a technician by placing IIRC a diode and subsequent productions had no more that problem
Max

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