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Author Topic: Eg 1 to initial gain should keep vca open regardles the settings of eg2  (Read 1709 times)

gentleclockdivider

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I am sure this is a bug and it's not how the original ms 20 behaves
On the ms 20 eg is hardwired to vca , which is called side chain on the arturia
Now , if we patch eg 1 to vca initial gain in , and set eg 2 with a fast decay and  zero sustain ,once eg2 has reached it zero sustain phase  there should still be sound because eg 1 is still providing a gate signal to the vca .
on the arturia version , eg 2 has always priority over eg1
This means that on the arturia version we can NOt use eg2 as a pure filter envelope with zero sustain and eg1 as an amp envelope,  simply because eg2 will always decay to silence ( when sustain is set to zero )
I tested this on the korg ms20 version and there it behaves like the original ms 20
Here are two pictures sowcasing the issue , exact same settings , recorded while holding a key ( gate one )
This is def. a bug or a huge oversight

 

LBH

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Hi,

Yes according to the original manual, then the signal connected to the original Initial Gain should sum up with the EG2 up - but to max 5 volts.
That should mean the sustain from EG1 when connected to the Initial Gain allways should give the full sustain level of 5 volts.
So basicly that would work like a bypass of the EG2 levels, as i understand it. But to what use?

Don't we get the same result, just by raising the level of EG2 sustain to the maximum 5 volt, since EG1 in Arturias version does'nt send out the sustain when used to sidechain the EG2 for the AMP? have'nt we just got the possibility in this case to have control over the sustain level - and more - in Arturias construction?

Does'nt the Sidechain feature that Arturia have applied instead of the Initial Gain just give us more control, that was'nt possible the originals Initial Gain? Or am i missing something?

Can you give an example of an original behavior controlling something where EG1 was patched to the Initial Gain, that you can't create, in some way or another in Arturias version?

Is there any other patching to the original Initial Gain, where you can't get the same result and perhaps more in Arturiassidechain construction?

I'm genuinely interested. It's not so easy to see through.
I know it's not like the original now, but can't all the original behavior be done in one way or another, and then the sidechain offer more possiblities in addition?

For authenticity Arturia could have made the option to choose between the original Initial Gain and the new Sidechain feature, even if the new construction should be able to do the same and even more. But is there more to it?

I attach an image of the text from the original hardware user manual.

gentleclockdivider

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Hi,

Yes according to the original manual, then the signal connected to the original Initial Gain should sum up with the EG2 up - but to max 5 volts.
That should mean the sustain from EG1 when connected to the Initial Gain allways should give the full sustain level of 5 volts.
So basicly that would work like a bypass of the EG2 levels, as i understand it. But to what use?

Don't we get the same result, just by raising the level of EG2 sustain to the maximum 5 volt, since EG1 in Arturias version does'nt send out the sustain when used to sidechain the EG2 for the AMP? have'nt we just got the possibility in this case to have control over the sustain level - and more - in Arturias construction?

Does'nt the Sidechain feature that Arturia have applied instead of the Initial Gain just give us more control, that was'nt possible the originals Initial Gain? Or am i missing something?

Can you give an example of an original behavior controlling something where EG1 was patched to the Initial Gain, that you can't create, in some way or another in Arturias version?

Is there any other patching to the original Initial Gain, where you can't get the same result and perhaps more in Arturiassidechain construction?

I'm genuinely interested. It's not so easy to see through.
I know it's not like the original now, but can't all the original behavior be done in one way or another, and then the sidechain offer more possiblities in addition?

For authenticity Arturia could have made the option to choose between the original Initial Gain and the new Sidechain feature, even if the new construction should be able to do the same and even more. But is there more to it?

I attach an image of the text from the original hardware user manual.
NO , botton line is that a sustain of zero on eg 2 will always affect the vca output .
Imagine the following scenario on a real ms 20
EG2 with a fast decay and zero sustain to control the filter ,and EG 1 routed to initial gain in ,the  result will be is that the filter will close (eg 2 zero sustain ) and the  vca remains open becasue EG1 is sending a gate signal ( key is held )
 
On the arturia version , when using eg 2 as a filter envelope with sustain set to zero ,the above described scenario can not be done becasue it will also completely close the vca .
This is a huge oversight , can one of  the developers chime in ?
« Last Edit: May 21, 2022, 10:58:43 pm by gentleclockdivider »

LBH

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No matter what, then my stand is Arturia should have kept the original MS-20s Initial Gain, and then added the new Sidechain feature as an option.

I find this topic to be relevant.


Regarding you imagined example:

Have you read Arturias Adrien's explanation on the EG2 behavior here: https://forum.arturia.com/index.php?topic=109489.0#msg190336 ?
Korg MS-20 apparantly have a known quirky behavior thats not as described in the original manual.
This article is trying to explain as well: https://www.christeck.de/2021/04/03/korg-ms-20-envelope-generator-2-behaviour/

With the avaible info in mind, then this would happen.
The EG2 Sustain does'nt modulate Filter cutoff amount.
And as your title for this thread say, then the EG1 would output full level regardless of the EG2 Sustain setting.
So still you would get the original behavior by setting the EG2 Sustain to maximum level in Arturias version.
In addition to this, then Arturias Sidechain feature actually offer you the possiblity to lower the EG2 Sustain, to get the result you seem to be looking for.

I assume it's the same no matter EG2 is patched to Cutoff, as it's allready hardwired to that.

EDIT: Using Arturias added new EG2, then the EG2 sustain does modulate the cutoff. So in this case i guees your inagined example will be correct. However that's an option you did'nt have in the original. Never the less, then this is an argument for having the original Initial Gain option. EDIT END
« Last Edit: May 23, 2022, 08:19:25 pm by LBH »

gentleclockdivider

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But that is exactly what I want
I wan't EG 2 to control the cutoff  without the sustain ( to zero ) having   effect on the vca , and use EG1 as vca control only
This is not possible .
Yes , on the original ms20 the EG2 also always affects vca , but when eg1 was routed to intial gain in , the vca remained open as long as it receives a gate from EG1 .
 EG2 sustain ( set to zero )  parameter did not close the vca
Why isn't arturia responding to this ?

LBH

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To clarify.
Arturias MS-20 have a Classic and a Modern EG2 mode. When i mention the new EG2, then i mean the Modern. The Sustain work different for the Modern than for the Classic. This is covered in the thread i have linked to earlier.

 

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