Arturia Forums
Hardware Instruments => MatrixBrute => MatrixBrute - General discussions => Topic started by: robst247 on May 13, 2017, 12:45:02 pm
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According to the MatrixBrute manual (4.4. Audio Mod):
"When the VCOs modulate other VCOs, it's called Frequency Modulation - FM.
• VCO 1 > VCO 2 adjusts how much VCO 1 modulates VCO 2.
• VCO 1 < VCO 3 > VCO 2 lets VCO 3 modulate VCO 1 or 2."
However, I'm struggling to make convincing bell tones using Audio Mod. Is this feature really FM, or is cross modulation / ring modulation? Most of my experiments with Audio Mod have so far resulted in jarring noise rather than sweet bell tones. :'(
Can someone please coach me on how to produce sweet bell tones with the MatrixBrute?
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Of course it is FM ... but you can also generate bell-like sounds with ring-modulation.
Now, making it short ... for FM producing metallic sounds, it takes
1) a frequency ratio of - for example - 2:3, 2:5, 3:2, 3:5 (VCO1:VCO2). Rule, the division shall not result in an integer.
2) the envelopes should be forming like a "pingggg", meaning, very short attack, no sustain, and fitting release
You can also tweak the modulator until you get the feeling that it starts to sound bellish ... ;)
Since FM tends to generate very complex soundshapes from two very simple sine waveforms, it would be wise to start with the most simple waveforms as possible, which would be triangle waveforms on the MB.
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Well, I've tried your method (with all the frequency ratios you suggested and various others) and I certainly get metallic sounds. But whatever I try, I don't get what I WANT: a sweet bell tone - like well-tuned brass bells or a glockenspiel - that tracks with the keyboard so that I can make MUSIC with it. What I get hurts my ears and doesn't track with the keyboard. The best results still sound like a drunken smith hammering random metallic objects in his smithy, not angelic carillons. ;-)
I also have Synclavier V, which easily makes beautiful bells. Modulate a carrier sine with another sine at a non-integer frequency ratio (1.63 works well), modulate the FM modulation amount with an envelope that has a sharp attack and a slow decay and you get beautiful bells. But not on the MatrixBrute. What am I doing wrong? Or is this beyond the MB's capabilities?
Maybe you could post a link to some presets that you've made which have sweet bell tones.
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Additional tip for FM and bell sounds: You can get sine waves for VCO 1 and 2, just use the sub oscillator sine on it s own. Set all other waveforms to 0, make sure the sub waveform is in the leftmost position which gives a pure sine, then crank up the sub osc. VCO3 has a sine wave as a choice too. You may want to use the octave buttons to get into a higher frequency range. That's instant bell tones, tweaking the frequency ratios and the FM index as usual. The other waveforms give interesting sounds but not very bell like ones. Adding some LFO to the modulation index, VCA or oscillator levels gives that wavering quality to the bells sounds.
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Okay understood ... now ... to those bell sounds ... IMO you should NOT use the MB, this may sound harsh but here some thoughts,
Those clean and melodic bellish sounds you are after (like glockenspiel) are best created in the realm of digital FM, why
FM synthesis is highly responsive to the frequency relation between the oscillators or "operators". If only one of the oscillator frequencies goes a tiny bit out of tune, the sound often changes dramatically. Stability of sound requires stability of the oscillators.
BTW ... you mentioned Synclavier, this was a digital FM synth ;)
Now ...
Analog oscillators are rarely very stable and that's nowdays by intension, because this gives us those wanted warm, natural, "analogue" sounds. If we listen carefully to two VCOs of the MB, we can hear those fluctuations, which make for a great analogue sound of this synth. If a VCO-frequency is controlled, like some digiatal controlled VCOs (DCOs), the sound get's cleaner and is also better suited for cleaner FM. But the MB has analogue controlled VCOs with exponential behaviour, which are very sensitive to temperature changes (this is, why we have to warm it up, after all, or recalibrate from time to time) and this generates unstability all the time.
Digital oscillators are very stable, clinically stable sort of. This allows for clean and highly controllable bellish and also wooden sounds (glockenspiel, marimba, xylophon etc). We can insert slight vibrations (noises) up to broken bell like effects by adding a controlled third or fourth oscillators with specific frequency modulations.
To sum it up. The natural fluctuations of the MB create uncontrollable side effects and keep the FM sound changing. The sound get's quite some gritt or dirt just because of the natural instability of the VCOs. Clean bellish FM sounds are not his strength. But I love just that "dirt", which can create rough but melodic sounds :D
But you can try to play the filters (resonance) in tune (keyboard tracking). The filter give us clean sine like bell sounds.
EDIT: If you are interested in an affordable HW-synth for digital FM, which is providing great sound and is easy to operate ... check out this http://ixox.fr/preenfm2/
I have it since a while, worth every cent ... :D
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But you can try to play the filters (resonance) in tune (keyboard tracking). The filter give us clean sine like bell sounds.
As mentioned above the oscillators prove sine waves directly. While the (desirable) imperfections of analogue make it hard to get a similar sounding FM bell sound across the keyboard, FM with sines do get the timbre.
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OK - thanks. I understand that MatrixBrute won't give me the perfectly stable frequency ratios that are necessary for pure bell tones. Having recently purchased the MB and a Korg WaveDrum, though, I'm not going to be buying PreenFM2 in the near future. I'll stick to Arturia Synclavier, Native Instruments FM8 and Dexed.
If anyone has created interesting MB presets that have a bellish or ringing sonic quality, please post them in the Presets sharing section of this forum.
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Try this, starting from an Init sound:
- In the mixer, turn off VCO 1, set VCO 2 level to 2 o'clock, send VCO 2 to the ladder
- in VCO 1 and VCO 2, turn down the saw wave fully, set Sub wave to sine (fully counter clockwise)
- in VCO 1, set Sub level to half
- in VCO 2, set Sub level to 3 o'clock, set Coarse tuning to +1 octave (turn it clockwise until the LED lights up)
- in the FM section, set VCO 1 > VCO 2 to 3 o'clock
- in the performance section, set the Octave to +2 (compensating for the fact that we use Sub oscillators)
- in Env 2, set Attack and Sustain to minimum, set Decay and Release to half
- in LFO 1, select sine wave, set Rate to 1 o'clock
- in the Mod matrix, assign LFO 1 to VCA, set the amount to 30 (to get wavering/shimmering)
This should already give you a bell'ish sound. The key is using sines to get that pure sound. Now play around with VCO1 Coarse tuning, increasing it gradually and observe the sounds. Play around with VCO 1 Sub level and/or the VCO2->VCO1 FM control. From here you should be able to get a range of bell sounds. Also play around with the LFO to control that wavering/shimmering effect. You can also apply the filter with an envelope (Env 1) similar to Env 2 to reduce the higher harmonics as the sound fades. If you spend a little time exploring the parameters settings, not least using very fine adjustments to focus on the sweet spots, you should be able to get some pretty convincing bells sounds.
To 'save' VCO 1 for other uses, you could instead use VCO 3 as the modulator, but I find it easier to get at the bell sounds I want using VCO 1 since it offers more and finer control of FM index (controlled by VCO 1 level and VCO 1 > VCO 2) and pitch (both Coarse and fine controls), as well as other waveforms if you want to 'dirty it up'.
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I'll stick to Native Instruments Massive, Arturia Synclavier and Dexed.
Have you ever tried Native Instruments FM-8? If you have purchased NI Complete, it was in the package ...
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Thanks to DrJustice, whose bell-tone method works well. ;D
SoundRider, I typed Native Instruments Massive, but I meant to type FM8. Yes, I do have it (and loads of other Native Instruments' software), but I haven't delved into it for a long time.
Right now, it's real knobs that I need to tweak and ANALOG that I need to hear.
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Here's an interesting preset I just created based on DrJustice's patented recipe for sweet bell tones but with some modifications of my own:
1. Instead of routing directly to VCF2 (ladder), I've put the filters in series and switched VCF1 (Steiner) to high-pass mode. Why? To filter out the disharmonic undertones (lower sideband frequencies) that result from FM, before passing the signal to the low-pass filter.
2. Instead of using a sine wave as the carrier (VCO2), I've used a triangular wave (without metallization) to give a fuller, more complex timbre, more like a church carillon.
3. To further beef up the sound, VCF2 has about 60% Brute Factor (about as much as I could dial in without getting that expensive 'speaker-cones-popping-out-like-Madonna's-pointy-tits' effect).
4. To imitate the metal beater, I mixed in an initial burst of Blu noise. Noise Level is 83% modulated by ENV3, which has only a very short decay section.
5. The echoes rising in pitch (which are only heard in the lower three octaves) are created by the Stereo Delay, with Regeneration cranked up almost to the max. and a medium delay time about 55% modulated by ENV2, which has decay set at about 75%.
6. The VCF2 (Ladder) cutoff frequency is tracked to the keyboard with a positive slope of about 33%.
What do you think, fellow MatrixBruters? If you modify this preset in an interesting way, please post the result(s) here.
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Nice one Rob - this can be taken quite far!
I played around a bit using some of your suggestions. Very good tip about using triangle for the carrier - that gives much brighter bells with smaller modulation index. I also used both the sub sine and the triangle simultaneously to good effect. Using HP + LP series filtering also gives a lot of subtle shaping possibilities. And the noise beater work very well. And we still have one oscillator more to add, either as modulator or carrier or something else...
I'm getting a huge range of nice bell sounds, from tiny little bells to big heavy ones, and also all other sorts of metallic sounds from the sweetest pings to brutal clangs. Big fun! :)
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Ah, the aural ecstasy of analog tintinnabulations! ;D
How about sharing some of your bellish presets? I'd LOVE to hear 'em!
Enjoy!
RobSt247
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Sorry, I haven't saved any... I'm terrible at saving patches (not being able to name patches is bugging me too...).
Anyway, now that we have cracked the bell, so to speak, I'd rather encourage others to use the tips we've come up with to explore this sonic territory - once you have the basic bells going it's easy to be in control and take it in different directions.
Ah, the aural ecstasy of analog tintinnabulations! ;D
Bellissimo! :D
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Right now, it's real knobs that I need to tweak and ANALOG that I need to hear.
I understand this very good.
It's also interesting and great to hear that DrJustice and you got FM tones out of the MB, which you like. I tried myself some patches, which have never been clean tubular bell like sounds, but I love them just for their imperfections.
It's a bit off-topic, but have you tried FM on a modular synth? I use the Verbose "complex oscillator" and this has become my go to tool for creating analoge FM sounds.
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Hi SoundRider,
I don't (yet) possess hardware analog synthesis modules, but I do have the excellent Applied Acoustics Systems (AAS) Tassman https://www.applied-acoustics.com/tassman/overview/ (https://www.applied-acoustics.com/tassman/overview/), which is the best virtual analog modular synth in the visible universe! Some Tassman modules are fairly conventional virtual analog (e.g. oscillators, envelopes, LFO's, mixers and effects), whereas others are based on physical modelling ('generators' such as flute, mallet, organ, tone wheel, etc. and 'resonators' such as beam, bowed beam, marimba, bowed marimba, membrane, bowed membrane, string, bowed string, plate, bowed plate and tube).
Some of the Tassman factory patches use FM, and, of course, it's easy to make your own.
Give it a try!
The only thing Tassman can't do is make a steaming hot mug of coffee. :(
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Yes true ... those AAS plug-ins are great sound ressources, particularly the physical modelling synths, I have a some in my collection, but never tried Tassman, which seems to be a very complete and flexible system to built ones own machines. Thanks for the tip, this was never on my radar ;) Can you tell me, how much is the CPU load?
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The CPU load is very light. On my ASUS X750JA laptop with Windows 10, I run Tassman standalone or as a 64-bit VST in one of my DAWs (Reaper or Cubase) and the CPU load indicated by Tassman itself never exceeds 8%. Usually, it's less than 5%, even with very complex patches. My CPU is an Intel Core i7-4700 HQ @ 2.40 GHz. At its current price of US$349 (€314), Tassman isn't exactly a steal, but the possibilities are infinite and the sounds it produces are suberb. It also includes versatile sequencers that you can use not only to trigger notes but also as LFOs.
AAS Chromaphone 2, StringStudio VS-2 and UltraAnalog VA-2 are fantastic too! I use Chromaphone most of all, because I love 'natural' sounds that are like struck metal, struck wood and bowed or plucked strings.
Do you also have Arturia Synclavier V? I've just started delving into it. Amazing!
Virtual synths are like the lassies: too many of them to explore; too little time. 8)
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That's good to hear ... 8% on a i7 multi core seems acceptable for all that maths, which is going on in the background. I have a similar notebook and I asked, because I use some synths of u-he and Xils-Lab ... and those are really CPU hungry.
No, I haven't got any of the Arturia soft synths. For digital FM I use FM-8, Bazille, MOD-7, and PreenFM2 ... which seems to be more then enough for me and the time beeing. As you said, exploring takes so much time :D.
This said, I don't know them all deep and down to the bottom. I am happy that I might have got an idea of some FM "sound-creation-concepts" and FM "sound-families" and how to approach them. The basics of FM can be learned quickly, but all those multi-operator patches and programs are so manifold and can be use so differently that I would say, it takes a life-time to go through all of it and there will still be much to explore in the afterlife. Most fascinating is, how much different simple and tiny modulations change the tones. If programed the right way, a single modulator-carrier pair can sound like two or three completely different voices singing together.
The most fun I have with digital FM, is on my PreenFM2. It's hardware with knobs and buttons, it's equivalent to a DX7 sound engine, loads even DX7 patches, and it sounds fantastic. A little box with yellow display and containing a cosmos of sounds .. lovely ones, natural ones, dark ones, and dirty ones ... ;)
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Your description of the PreenFM2 sounds great. How much did you pay for it? Did you buy it in kit form or pre-assembled?
Years ago (maybe as long as 20 years ago), I fiddled around with a friend's Kurzweil synth that had FM onboard. And a colleague of mine had a DX7 and showed me how the various patch configurations worked, but I couldn't really wrap my head around the concept at that time. I have Native Instruments FM8 but have never really got under the hood. Work is the curse of the synthesizing classes! Wrong f***king planet! >:(
If you make any interesting MatrixBrute patches featuring the Audio Mod knobs, please share them here or in the presets section of the forum.
Happy knob-tweaking!
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I bought my PreenFM2 fully assembled from Van Daal Elektronics: http://vandaal-electronics.com/shop/ They are charging 300€ now and I think, my price was about the same.
I have experimented a lot with the audio-modulation of the MB, to understand, how it sounds and where I can find interesting sweet spots. If found many. But unfortunately I haven't saved much. The most interesting sounds I got using filter FM, particularly using a tiny bit of blue noise, because the MB is my only synth, which has blue noise to modulate the filter ;)
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Please save and share some presets. I'm interested in hearing the results of your labours. :)
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- In the mixer, turn off VCO 1, set VCO 2 level to 2 o'clock, send VCO 2 to the ladder
- in VCO 1 and VCO 2, turn down the saw wave fully, set Sub wave to sine (fully counter clockwise)
- in VCO 1, set Sub level to half
- in VCO 2, set Sub level to 3 o'clock, set Coarse tuning to +1 octave (turn it clockwise until the LED lights up)
- in the FM section, set VCO 1 > VCO 2 to 3 o'clock
- in the performance section, set the Octave to +2 (compensating for the fact that we use Sub oscillators)
- in Env 2, set Attack and Sustain to minimum, set Decay and Release to half
- in LFO 1, select sine wave, set Rate to 1 o'clock
- in the Mod matrix, assign LFO 1 to VCA, set the amount to 30 (to get wavering/shimmering)
Everything is right, except you should not leave VCA's ENV2 sustain to Minimum, unless you get a PopCorn Song sound ;)
You need to push it to Half to get a Bell Sound.
Brilliant move, by the way. Smart Tip !
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I've been playing around more with FM on the MxB, Rev 2, and Ableton Operator. Getting clear tones is definitely hardest on the MxB but I usually like the not-quite-clean bells best. Here are some other tips to add to Dr Justice's and robst247's:
1. TING ATTACK: Route Env 3 to Audio Mod VCO1>2 and set Env to Attack and Sustain minimum, Decay just above minimum, and Release to taste. This adds just a bit of crash to the initial attack and, depending on your FM setting, will add slight pitch modulation. I've not studied bells to know how they behave but I know that the initial attack is slightly higher when striking a guitar or bass string. This effect replicates that effect.
2. HARMONICS: Using VCO 3 as a sine at noon if VCO 2 is at 3 can bring out some nice harmonics if it's tuned to a 5th, suggesting natural harmonic complexity. Depending on the frequency your VCO is set to you might be able to mix that in as well.
3. BRIGHT PING: Tune VCO 3 to its highest octave and blend at around noon for extra brightness in the attack. Use the LP filter envelope to cut off those frequencies while retaining the root VCO 2 frequencies.
4. WARBLE AND MOTION: You can modify the modifier by using the VCO>VCO1 Audio Mod routing if you're already routing VCO1 to 2. Setting it to 8-9 o'clock adds just a bit of movement to the patch.
5. NON-PERCUSSIVE: And of course use a longer attack on these patches to get a Cristal Baschet or glass harmonica type sound!
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The brute does do FM synthesis, but it is not the DX style or Ableton operator style FM you may be trying to achieve. The brute uses exponential FM where as styles of FM generally limited to use in digital engines is linear FM.
Using the audio mod section in conjunction with modifiers (LFOs, envelopes, etc) can create very interesting sounds. Also, you can daisy chain the FM from one to another to creat very complex sounds.
Try combining FM with oscillator sync!
So yes this is FM, just dont think you'll be getting a 1980s pop bass like a DX7 will get you.
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The brute does do FM synthesis, but it is not the DX style or Ableton operator style FM you may be trying to achieve. The brute uses exponential FM where as styles of FM generally limited to use in digital engines is linear FM.
Yep exponential FM will always affect the pitch with just small amounts of modulation. Linear preserves the pitch more efficiently. And through-zero FM pretty much leaves the pitch in tact. Being able to switch between linear and exponential would have been nice. Maybe on the MatrixReloadedBrute!
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The brute does do FM synthesis, but it is not the DX style or Ableton operator style FM you may be trying to achieve. The brute uses exponential FM where as styles of FM generally limited to use in digital engines is linear FM.
Using the audio mod section in conjunction with modifiers (LFOs, envelopes, etc) can create very interesting sounds. Also, you can daisy chain the FM from one to another to creat very complex sounds.
Try combining FM with oscillator sync!
So yes this is FM, just dont think you'll be getting a 1980s pop bass like a DX7 will get you.
Yes, this is the reason we won’t get DX sounds out of the matrixbrute (or other conventional analog synths with FM). The way I’ve had it explained is that an analog synth has exponential fm, because if you want to add, say vibrato, you want the pitch to bend up melodically/musically/harmonically the same amount as it bends down. Say you want to bend A4 (440Hz) up and down an octave, you are bending up to A5 (880Hz), and down to A3 (220Hz). You’ve bent up by 440 Hz, but have only bent down 220 Hz. That sounds right for most musical modulation, but getting into audio rate modulation of pitch, designers found that when modulating a linear amount, the same Hz up as down, the added harmonics were more musically related to the fundamental note being played. Sweeter/more musical, and linear FM ended up being the classic 80’s FM sound.
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I have a my trusty TX7 module on a rack shelf for just such sounds.
I'm unfamiliar with the term "through zero FM". Could you elaborate Guyaguy?
Cheers.
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The DX7 and similar Yamaha digisynths actually use Phase Modulation (PM) and were just marketed as FM, right? This also means that you don't really get the sidebands and some of the challenges, that (Exponential) FM comes with.
(I wrote this part, then edited it out, cause suddenly I wasn't sure sure if I am mixing it up with the Casio Synth, but they use Phase Distortion :D, and now I am editing it back in, because it also helps to understand the rest of this post better.)
@standingwave: Thru-Zero means, that the oscillator is able to run "backwards", when the FM reaches a point beyond having it go to 0 hz, thus allowing for strong modulation beyond that point or also for example allowing the oscs base frequency to be 0hz,and the FM modulating it equally to both sides of that point, which deals with some of the problems (pitch shift) introduced by expo FM.
In eurorack wonderland, there have recently been some amazing inventions on this front.
Intellijels Rubicon2 made the TZFM big, SSFs Zero Point Oscillator has Lin FM, TZFM and some amazing wizardry regarding some AM coupled to the Zero Point and Joranalogues Generate3 has TZPM of plus and minus 720 degrees.
There was this very comprehensive article on all the different possible types of FM, further differentiating it into what they called it FM+ and FM-, but I haven't been able to find it in my quick search right now...
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All of the above VCOs are completely analog, by the way!
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I have a my trusty TX7 module on a rack shelf for just such sounds.
I'm unfamiliar with the term "through zero FM". Could you elaborate Guyaguy?
Cheers.
Pretty much what Lunatic Sound describes:
The DX7 and similar Yamaha digisynths actually use Phase Modulation (PM) and were just marketed as FM, right? This also means that you don't really get the sidebands and some of the challenges, that (Exponential) FM comes with.
(I wrote this part, then edited it out, cause suddenly I wasn't sure sure if I am mixing it up with the Casio Synth, but they use Phase Distortion :D, and now I am editing it back in, because it also helps to understand the rest of this post better.)
@standingwave: Thru-Zero means, that the oscillator is able to run "backwards", when the FM reaches a point beyond having it go to 0 hz, thus allowing for strong modulation beyond that point or also for example allowing the oscs base frequency to be 0hz,and the FM modulating it equally to both sides of that point, which deals with some of the problems (pitch shift) introduced by expo FM.
In eurorack wonderland, there have recently been some amazing inventions on this front.
I think the Zeroscillator was the one to start the trend in modern modular. I use the Liivitera and it’s nice to get super complex waves in the analog domain, which is another reason I love the MxB—lots of wave variation if you modulate the Metallizer wavefolder with audio rate signals.
I believe digital FM synths use through zero oscillators which is likely more the explanation of why digital FM is “more precise” rather than a function of digital vs analog.
From my understanding FM is a result of PM in the design of the Yamaha synths like the DX series. But I’ve not tried to understand it in depth because the explanations end up having mathematical squiggly lines that just make me sleepy. ;D
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Thanks for the excellent experience you guys!
Its interesting that tech has come far enough now to have stable enough VCOs for the mathematical precision that FM requires!
I've been holding back from Eurorack for some time now but it looks like that is where some of the most innovation is happening in the sound design world.
I'm bidding on a Sy77 as well as an SY22 at the moment though. Wish me luck!
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the biggest reason for digital FM to be so stable and clear is tuning, because tiny differences in tuning make for big differences in sounds.
In the case of PM, as in the Yamaha Classics, there is no need to go thru zero,because the oscs base frequency will stay the same.
So to come back to the OP, you will not be able to create those sweet, sparkling bells with analog oscs generally and even less with the MxB for a number of reasons, nontheless tuned metal objects are certainly to be created and some of them even on the sweeter side.
Make sure the brute is warm, tuned (after warming up), and dial in the ratios very carefully, you could also use a macro knob with e.g. 50% mod intensity on the modulators freq or the FM index for more precision.
I did find the excellent article on FM, but sadly it is in German. If you happen to understand that, do check this out, its rad:
https://www.amazona.de/synthesizer-4-was-ist-fm-synthese-und-phasen-frequenzmodulation/
Maybe we can determine, which type of FM it actually is, the MxB offers...