Author Topic: The road to version 2.0...an invitation for all to discuss (Read 36785 times)

bg · « **Reply #15 on:** February 15, 2005, 02:01:42 pm »

Quote from: "omissis"

What should be best would be to remove the audible pitch return which doesn't exist on the original.

On the original CS-80 how do you get back to concert pitch?

omissis · « **Reply #16 on:** February 15, 2005, 02:54:27 pm »

You mean?

What I tried to say is that once you released the finger from the ribbon on any CS synthesizer you heared a jump to original position that is the key pitch you bended previously, you didn't hear the pitch "climbing" or "descending" to the original pitch.

One example

http://www.bluesynths.com/Sounds/cs60_solo2.mp3

the pitch is bended up then the finger is took off the ribbon...listen , no audible return!

bg · « **Reply #17 on:** February 16, 2005, 01:40:54 am »

Ah, now I understand. I just tried it and you're right, releasing the on-screen ribbon causes the pitch to glide home instead of snapping instantly. I didn't notice this before as I use a Kurzweil ExpressionMate ribbon controller. The CS-80V responds properly in this regard using external MIDI control.

Thanks for pointing out the CS-60 mp3. Good CS-80 audio examples as well at bluesynth. The programming is inspiring.

bg · « **Reply #18 on:** February 16, 2005, 03:10:44 am »

I don't know if this has been covered before, but there may be a problem with the Chorus and Tremolo implementation.

When Chorus is turned on I hear the chorus effect. But if Delay is also turned on, the chorus effect almost disappears from the main signal. The echos have the full chorus effect, but not the main sound. In other words, If Delay is on Chorus only effects the delayed signal, not the primary signal.

If Delay is on and Tremolo and Chorus are both on, the primary sound completely disappears. Tremolo and Chorus are applied correctly, but only to the output of the delay circuit. The primary signal disappears.

bg · « **Reply #19 on:** February 21, 2005, 05:24:42 pm »

In an earlier thread I stated that the Initial Pitchbend function on the CS-80V is not quite like the original. I believe the bend should be slower and originate from a slightly lower pitch. My reference for how Initial Pitchbend should sound is Eddie Jobson's CS-80 intro on "Alaska," by U.K. To illustrate, I made three audio examples:

Alaska_UK.mp3 - original recording excerpt
Alaska_CS-80V.mp3 - CS-80V (external reverb added)
Alaska_Oasys-PCI.mp3 - Korg Oasys-PCI (no external processing)

The Oasys-PCI has a pitch ramp function with adjustable depth and time. In this example, I believe the Oasys more closely resembles the behavior of the Initial Pitchbend on the original CS-80.

With regard to the CS-80V, note that I am hitting the descending 5ths with full or almost full velocity and the Initial Pitchbend lever is at maximum.

The three mp3 files are here in the "CS-80V test" folder.

omissis · « **Reply #20 on:** February 21, 2005, 09:21:51 pm »

Hi bg

I know that on CS-80V the I-PB function has a deeper range than the original implementation, however I think it's a matter of tweaking the I-PB lever to get the half tone modulation eventually. For what I've heard off the original, the modulation speed is identical, anyway as all analog things , the man who serviced Jobson's CS-80 may have calibrated it to get a slower speed, who knows :wink: ??

RoyOrbisonCS-80 · « **Reply #21 on:** February 22, 2005, 10:03:51 am »

Hi Max,

you're saying we can tweak the I-PB? I'll have to review that. I'm with bg (and that was a very loyal rendition of the Alaska intro, by the way, on the CS80V) about the bend not being deep enough.
I don't believe it was a calibration job done specifically on Jobson's CS-80, because mine has the same amount of depth in the bend. It just doesn't come close to that on the "V".

I also think the tremolo and chorus don't come close to the original either.
They almost have a warp factor, as the tone is being modulated.

Just my O,

ROCS-80

omissis · « **Reply #22 on:** February 22, 2005, 10:58:12 am »

To be true I noticed that the speed is a bit faster than on the UK file , I meant it was the deep factor which could be tweaked some way . For the Chorus I think that even if not exactly modeled it behaves almost as the original.
As a fact I think you can listen to UK again, ehm I don't remeber if it was "Nevermore" or "mental medication" final , sorry I can't rely on my memories :oops: :oops: :oops: !!

bg · « **Reply #23 on:** March 02, 2005, 09:22:34 pm »

I noticed that using the ribbon in SUSTAIN I mode does not work correctly. From the CS-80 manual, p. 14:
"When the CS-80 is in SUSTAIN I mode, the ribbon only changes the pitch while you are holding down a key."

In other words, with the sustain slider up and in SUSTAIN I mode:
if you play a key, bend it with the ribbon, release the key, then release the ribbon, the pitch should stay at the bent pitch as the sustain dies away.

[continued from the manual]
"In SUSTAIN II mode, the ribbon wil also change the pitch during the sustain (after you let go of the keys)."

The CS-80V ribbon functions in SUSTAIN II mode only.

Please make the CS-80V ribbon work as it should in SUSTAIN I mode, as it is musically useful. Listen, for example, to the last sustained chord of the section immediately before UK's "Presto and Vivace."

omissis · « **Reply #24 on:** March 02, 2005, 10:27:47 pm »

Thanks bg!

So shall we update the feature/fix request ??

Fixings:

Ringmodulator:
reshape the sine wave,
remove the "PWM" artifact at low MOD rates,
a better tweak to the MOD parameter's behaviour
make the AD levers work in real-time

Filters:
when both HPF and LPF are active you couldn't set filter's Attack time under 1 ms: please fix it!!!

PORT/GLISS slider :
make it work in real time!

Ribbon :
eliminate the glided return after the bending has been done
Set it with "pressed note priority" when SUSTAIN I is active

Sub Osc :
Better tweak the VCA amount control : it clips the thing to death when set at high values!

Global :
less digital stepping
remove crackles and pops when moving sliders

Feature requests :

Freerunning oscillators!

Fine tuning and Transpose for each single VCO per voice card

Redesigned waveforms

That's all ( for the moment :wink: :wink: :twisted:

? )

FabP · « **Reply #25 on:** March 08, 2005, 02:37:16 pm »

I think we must make a (big) resume of all the next features wanted, in order to put the developers under pressure ! :twisted:

Some of them will take far more cpu, but if all is configurable, and with the increase of computer power, it may not be a problem...

omissis · « **Reply #26 on:** March 08, 2005, 02:51:43 pm »

Hi Fab

I think that my last post featuring fixing and feature request is complete by far, anyway if is there anything that needs a serious re-writing is the ring-modulator section : obviously it has some flavours of the original but at present it doesn't quite sound like it....the sine modulator is somehow too rounded compared to the original so the sound result "dull" a lot ,unlike the original which features a sort of a "nipped" sine, something between a tri and a sine for short.
Also it is the most buggy section in all the synthesizer ! Lots of them are noticeable when interacting with the DEPTH parameter and the related envelope , not to mention my nightmare : an audible artifact at low MOD values which compromise drastically the sound....it has been there since the version 1.0

:roll:

bg · « **Reply #27 on:** March 08, 2005, 07:00:57 pm »

Not to sound like a broken record, :roll: but I would only add: have a close listen to the Initial Pitchbend on the original. Vanheckis in an earlier post was right, there should be no attack envelope on the I-PB.

omissis · « **Reply #28 on:** March 08, 2005, 07:46:05 pm »

Hey bg

I am the most broken record in all the forum

( the daily statements on ringmodulator tell you nothing ? :wink: :wink: :wink: )

Anyway you're right with the initial pitchbend fixing , it has to feature a less deeper modulation although I can do the semitone modulation by tweaking the lever only a bit .....Fabrice, Xavier?? Is there anyone out there??? :roll:

PS: I think the updates won't see the light of day soon but let's anyway hope the wait will be worth it! :?

omissis · « **Reply #29 on:** March 08, 2005, 10:53:21 pm »

Quote

So shall we update the feature/fix request ??

Fixings:

Ringmodulator:
reshape the sine wave,
remove the "PWM" artifact at low MOD rates,
a better tweak to the MOD parameter's behaviour
make the AD levers work in real-time

Filters:
when both HPF and LPF are active you couldn't set filter's Attack time under 1 ms: please fix it!!!

PORT/GLISS slider :
make it work in real time!

Ribbon :
eliminate the glided return after the bending has been done
Set it with "pressed note priority" when SUSTAIN I is active
Sub Osc :
Better tweak the VCA amount control : it clips the thing to death when set at high values!

Global :
less digital stepping
remove crackles and pops when moving sliders

Feature requests :

Freerunning oscillators!

Fine tuning and Transpose for each single VCO per voice card

Redesigned waveforms

In addition:

Fixing to the Initial Pitchbend needed ( to reduce the way too deeper response at high values)

Just a question: what about getting rid of the difference SingleMode - MultiMode ? I think that the synth could easily stay permanently in MultiMode and you can anyway leave the option to open/close the aeration grid for.....an estethical purpose :wink: