Alternative concept of Interface (man/machine)

[Teuf]

Hello,
(Sorry for my shameful English :oops: )

I tried to imagine a new kind of display / interface for hardware synthesizer such ORIGIN.

I always wish a gear allow me to use it and understand it instantly.
Something logic, handy, ergonomic with all functions in front of the eyes and under the fingers

Then the idéa would be to to use a 12' touch screen with assignables rotary knobs around it.
This layout allows to see the name and the value of each assignable knobs on the borders of the screen.

In this way you touch the screen to select a parameter and turn the main rotary knob to edit it or you assign your favorite parameters to the assignable knobs to work faster :-)
(The names and the values of the controlers apears when you need them - cf pic3 )







To associate a parameter with a knob, you simply touch the parameter on the screen and push on one of the 18 assignable knob...what's easier ?

In French :
Il ne faut pas focaliser sur le design, arbitrairement "vintage" et pas forcement tres reussi au niveau du look des couleurs ou des textures, mais sur le principe.
C'est à dire un ecran tactil 12.1 pouces avec des controleurs physiques assignables associés à l'affichage dynamique de ceux ci sur les bords de l'ecran (en surimpression de l'interface graphique)

[ Add on ]
Here an improvement of this interface concept : http://ns20209.ovh.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=2108



Regards
Teuf

[coolcat]

Nice design there Teuf!
Reminds me of the PPG Realizer:

www.vintagesynth.com/misc/ppgrealizer.shtml

The Realizer was a very innovative design for its time (1986).
Only now 20 years later on we get to see some of these ideas
in the new generation of synths.

- Menno

[Teuf]

Wow ! Thanks for this interesting link, CoolCat.
I never seen this gear but some idea seems to be the same  

In fact I realised with the first model that the spaces between the knobs around the 12.1" screen was too short.
Then I decided to move them apart and to draw lines...
With a bigger screen there would be no problem  :roll:

But what do you think about the main concept ?

Teuf

[coolcat]

But what do you think about the main concept ?

Teuf

The concept is good, but it will be old by the time that big
touchscreens will drop in price.

My ideal synth interface would be a keyboard with a 30" - 40" wide
touchscreen. Where the screen will fold up/down, just like a big
laptop. But then optimized for audio/music with powerful dsp's.

With a big touchscreen, you won't be needing any hardware knobs.
You can control everything from the screen, just like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PbqS9x7sBZA&feature=related


I think it won't be long before we start seeing these type of synths.


- Menno

[Pip]

It also reminds me of the PPG Realizer - one of the reasons I'm looking forward to Origin is it actually getting to market.

I also like the the black finish.

I think cost will restrict the type of instrument for a few more years (large assignable touch screens) - but at least my mobile now has one

[Teuf]

Hello Pip


Look at the price of the option between normal screen and touch screen on the HP TX tablet PC...
The principle of touch screen is simple in fact (adding one basic sensitive layer on the screen)... and not so expensive, I think.

There are two (3 ?) kind of touch screen :
_Touch screen (with pressure of fingers or plastic pen)
_Electro magnetic screen (such pen tablet Wacom) This one is far expensive and require specific pen which sends pressure and tilt messages.
(_Eventually Both ?)

An Idea : The electro magnetic concept would allows to use a kind of controleur who send rotate message  :roll:
Then you just have to place this controler (knob) on the screen above the parameter you want to edit and turn it ... and after this to move it on another parameter ...
We have the best of the two worlds (versatil touch screen and physical controller(s)
What do you think about the concept ?

Teuf

(in french : Je ne suis pas du tout sur d'etre tres clair dans mes explications en anglais.
Le principe avec la technologie d'ecran electro-magnetique serait de pouvoir utiliser un potentiometre "mobile" sans base ni axeavec ce qu'il faut de capteur à l'interieur (aiments ?)
et de la placer sur l'ecran au dessu de tel ou tel parametre à modifier, et de le tourner comme on tournerait n'importe quel potentiometre physique.
C'est la même technoliogie utilisée dans les tablettes graphiques WACOM pour inforgaphistes,
sauf qu'au lieux d'envoyer des informations de pession de plume, de pression de gomme ou d'inclinaison du stylet ça enverait des informations sur la localisation du controleur et sa rotation.
Plusieurs de ces potentiometres pourraient cohabiter sur un même ecran.
Cet ecran serait egalement tactil afin d'activer ou selectionner certains parametres avec le doigt comme on le ferait par exemple avec une workstation TRITON..)

[slammah2012]

I have a touch screen. You are limited to one touch at a time.....
If you try to move 2 controls, your mouse arrow will find the average point between the 2 contacts and adjust what ever is there.......
Therefore, the knobs are essential unless you like big pretty looking flat surfaces with out knobs like the late 80s gave us.....and limited control

I have yet to see a multiple touch screen like that last youtube video
 shows......it would be very expensive, an expense I would rather pay
 on a good polyphonic aftertouch Keyboard for its contol features....

BTW , have I mentioned the VAX77


http://www.infiniteresponse.com/complete%20specs_files/keyboard_graph-1.pdf

[coolcat]

I have yet to see a multiple touch screen like that last youtube video shows......it would be very expensive

Here's a nice overview of multi-touch systems/screens by one of
the experts in the field:

http://www.billbuxton.com/multitouchOverview.html

As you can see the technology is growing out of its infancy and we
are slowly getting there. The Apple iPhone has a multi-touch screen.
The Microsoft Surface costs $10.000. But that is just the introduction
price. In three years from now, this technology could be very
affordable.


- Menno

[slammah2012]

http://www.billbuxton.com/multitouchOverview.html
Single-finger vs multi-finger: Although multi-touch has been known since at least 1982, the vast majority
 of touch surfaces deployed are single touch.  If you can only manipulate one point, regardless of with a mouse, touch screen, joystick,
 trackball, etc., you are restricted to the gestural vocabulary of a fruit fly.  We were given multiple limbs for a reason.
 It is nice to be able to take advantage of them.

I would like to add "channel aftertouch"  keyboards as another fruit fly example.....
While we herald multi touch control surfaces, why do companies ignore multi pressures in keyboard surfaces???
Polyphonic aftertouch has been available for years, however, fruitflys apparently are the purchasers of synths according
 to the mentality of manufacturers....they offer an "end product", instead of a tool for us to create an end product....

I will pay $2,300 for the VAX77 available this spring with all of its on hand multi touch pressure functions,
and then wait the decade for these multi touch panels to come down to a point where a large enough surface
for realtime control, can be realized by manufacturers.....

The VAX • 77 responds to your touch like nothing ever has.

With existing keyboards, the key must be fully depressed before a note sounds – the speed at the bottom of the stroke determines the volume of the sound. But that
limited reaction is history. Grand pianos don’t work that way, and neither should your keyboard.

On the VAX • 77, you can play the lightest trills. Glissandos can actually crescendo. A sophisticated digital signal-processing algorithm (DSP) analyzes the slightest key
 movement – and your touch defines the music itself. This advance allows every nuance of your performance to present itself, incorporating the full complement of MIDI messages
– attack velocity, release velocity, channel pressure, polyphonic key pressure (aftertouch), and many new features. These precise measurements mean that the
way you play becomes part of the fabric of sounds you create. And your VAX • 77 will advance with you; it is fully equipped to support the enhanced velocity resolution
 of tomorrow.

You choose the feeling.

Now, playing music feels the way it should. But does your keyboard?

For too long, choosing between a keyboard and a piano was an exercise in compromise. You gave up the comfortable feel of a weighted key to get banks of new sounds and a
 higher degree of portability (something else the VAX • 77 has taken to a whole new level). But
keyboards have never been able to duplicate the smooth, natural feel of gravity. Until now.

The keys of your VAX • 77 will feel like nothing else you’ve ever played, because the measured keyweight is perfectly equal throughout the keystroke. Instead of being
strung on an axle rod, each key rocks on a stainless steel pin, just like the keys on a grand piano. The keys are long (white keys are over 14 inches), creating a balanced
 feel and an amazingly fast return – less than one-thousandth of a second. The unique patented action incorporates a number of exotic copolymers to achieve the
 smoothest and quietest response ever offered.

Together, these features enable the VAX • 77 to respond to you in ways never before seen in a keyboard. Your performance will be faster, more nuanced and more natural
 than ever before.

For the first time, you can choose among six different action weights. When we custom build your VAX • 77, you choose one of six keyweights, ranging from the light
 weight of a B3 to the heavy feel of a Steinway. Not sure what action will feel right to you? We’ll give you a chance to try them all out in our showroom.

You’re a performer – not a moving van. You don’t need another piece of heavy equipment to drag around from gig to gig. Your keyboard should respond to your need to get on the road.

Finally, it does. The VAX • 77 is the first professional keyboard designed to move as fast as you do. Unplug it. Fold it. Put it in the shoulder bag. Go.

It folds in half.

Really. We’re not kidding.

When we were designing the perfect keyboard for the live performer, we realized that one of the biggest problems a musician faces is the job of dragging around huge pieces of
equipment. Everything else in our lives has become smaller and lighter – our phones, our computers, even our stereos have been transformed into small, portable devices that allow us to go anywhere and do what we want when we get there. So when does the musician become truly mobile? Today.

The VAX • 77 is the first keyboard that literally folds down to just 23.3” by 14.5” – smaller than an electric guitar. To make this possible, we developed a completely new keyboard design, using sturdy, pre-stressed hinges similar to those on computers designed for harsh environments. When locked in the open position, your VAX • 77 is as solid as any one-piece keyboard. The tough, powder-coated magnesium exterior is designed for travel – you don’t have to worry about damaging a thin, plastic shell.

It won’t weigh you down.

But folding it was just part of the equation. We developed a keyboard that’s as portable as a guitar, but there would have been little point if it weighed as much as a piano. It doesn’t.

The VAX • 77 weighs about half as much as many standard keyboards, coming in at a mere 25 pounds.

Zip it and go.

As a result, carrying your keyboard becomes a whole lot easier. We created a simple shoulder bag designed for your VAX • 77 that fits it snugly, protecting it with the same
high-density foam used to protect sensitive electronic equipment and laptop computers. You’ll be able to pack up and carry your instrument as easily as every other member of your band. Oh – except for the drummer. Poor guy.

Plug and play. When you’re mobile, you don’t want to carry around a ton of peripheral equipment. The VAX • 77 is the first keyboard to feature universal compatibility, automatically recognizing and supporting every brand and model of sustain and expression pedal on the market – just plug them in (up to four) and you’re ready. In addition, the VAX • 77 features MIDI IN, MIDI OUT and full-speed USB capability. Carry just what you need, nothing more.

Your music is you. You play what you feel. Your instrument should be as unique as you are.

Pick your color. Pick your keys. Pick your configuration. Your keyboard will be custom built to your specifications. When was the last time that happened? That’s right – never.

The color of music.

We are offering the VAX • 77 in five dramatic colors. Choose from blood red, emerald green, ocean blue or screaming yellow – unless you want to stay with basic black.

And let’s make sure everyone knows it’s yours. We can silkscreen your name or your band’s logo on the VAX • 77 to make sure that everyone knows who they should envy. Just give us a call and we’ll walk you through the process.

Your keys, your way.

You’ve decided how it should look – now decide how it should feel. We offer a choice of six different weights for each key. You can choose an action that feels as light as a B3 or as heavy as a Steinway. Your VAX • 77 will respond exactly the way you want it to.

Load it up.

We’ll load each synth, bank and patch name you specify in a hierarchical menu format that works the way you want it to. You don’t have to learn the keyboard – the VAX • 77 will learn from you. As technology advances, so will your keyboard. We offer full technical support, and lifetime updates to software and firmware.

You can import MIDI name documents (midnam), Receptor™ bank and patch assignment files, and Cubase™ patch scripts, then drag and drop until you create the menus that you need. Change during rehearsal, then download and go. Buy a new synth? Write a new song? You’re gonna go from a small hall to a large stadium – your VAX • 77 will go with you.

VAX • 77 is not a revision. We built our keyboard from the ground up, designing for the live musician, challenging all that has come before. The results are extraordinary.

Making music together.

You need more than a new set of sounds – you need a better way to control the technology you already have, and take advantage of the advances in sound technology that are yet to
come. The VAX • 77 works with your current equipment, with MIDI IN, MIDI OUT and full-speed USB support. It automatically recognizes and supports every brand and model of sustain and expression pedal on the market – just plug them in (up to four), and they’ll generate any MIDI message you need, including pitch bend and modulation.

The embedded software is optimized for the live performer, designed to simultaneously control a mix of rack mount synths and softsynths running on a notebook computer. Each synth, bank and patch name is displayed on the keyboard (not just patch and bank numbers) in a hierarchical menu format. As you work, you can define your own menus on the computer, then download these patch scripts directly into the keyboard flash memory over USB or MIDI. You’re ready to perform.

Play your way.

You’ve written, refined and rehearsed. You’ve auditioned the sounds, chosen the ones you want, and have them at your fingertips. You’re ready for the stage.

We’ve designed the VAX • 77 for this moment. The most exciting electronics on the market today are those with the cleanest interfaces. Finally, elegant design has come to the
keyboard musician. We’ve eliminated hundreds of buttons and levers (that you can’t read on stage anyway) and created an instrument panel that is simple, elegant, and gives you the
freedom to customize your instrument as often as you like. As you rehearse and develop new music, the sounds you want to use can be moved to a “hot list” menu. An additional key, located adjacent to high C, allows you to instantly switch between sounds in the hot list. It’s the ultimate way to go from accompaniment to lead and back again.

A whole new light.

No matter what conditions you’re performing under – total darkness or a bath of bright stage lights – you’ll be able to see what you need. New display technology, called organic LED, keeps your menus visible regardless of the changes in lighting that occur during the show. The VAX • 77 keeps responding to you.

Complete Specifications

The VAX • 77 responds to you With existing keyboards, the key must be fully depressed before a note sounds. On the VAX • 77, a sophisticated digital signal-processing algorithm (DSP) analyzes the slightest key movement.

The VAX • 77 incorporates the full complement of MIDI messages – attack velocity, release velocity, channel pressure, polyphonic key pressure (aftertouch), and many new features.

The VAX • 77 is fully equipped to support the enhanced velocity resolution of tomorrow.

The measured keyweight is perfectly equal throughout the keystroke.

Each key rocks on a stainless steel pin, just like the keys on a grand piano.

The keys are long (white keys are over 14 inches), creating a balanced feel and an amazingly fast return – less than one-thousandth of a second.

You can choose among six different action weights when we custom build your VAX • 77.

The VAX • 77 redefines “portable”

The VAX • 77 is the first keyboard that folds down to just 23.3” by 14.5” – smaller than an electric guitar.

When locked in the open position, your VAX • 77 is as solid as any one-piece keyboard. The tough, powder-coated magnesium exterior is designed for travel.

The VAX • 77 weighs about half as much as many standard keyboards, coming in at a mere 25 pounds.

You will receive a simple shoulder bag designed for your VAX • 77 that fits it snugly, protecting it with high-density foam.

The VAX • 77 is custom built for you

We offer the VAX • 77 in five dramatic colors. Choose from blood red, emerald green, ocean blue, screaming yellow and basic black.

We can silkscreen your name or your band’s logo on the VAX • 77. Just give us a call and we’ll walk you through the process.

We’ll load each synth, bank and patch name you specify in a hierarchical menu format that works the way you want it to.

We offer full technical support, and lifetime updates to software and firmware.

With our Patch Librarian software (PC only), you can import MIDI name documents (midnam), Receptor™ bank and patch assignment files, and Cubase™ patch scripts, then drag

and drop until you create the menus that you need, then download to the VAX • 77 flash memory in seconds.

The VAX • 77 is the cutting edge

The VAX • 77 includes MIDI IN, MIDI OUT and full-speed USB support.

It automatically recognizes and supports every brand and model of sustain and expression pedal on the market. Use up to four at a time.

The embedded software is designed to simultaneously control a mix of rack mount synths and softsynths running on a notebook computer.

You can define your own menus on the computer, then download these patch scripts directly into the keyboard flash memory over USB or MIDI.

As you rehearse and develop new music, the sounds you want to use can be moved to a “hot list” menu. An additional key, located adjacent to high C, allows you to instantly switch between sounds in the hot list.

New display technology, called organic LED, keeps your menus visible regardless of the changes in lighting that occur during the show.

Keys:

76 custom weight + hot key

Constant force spring lifetime > 10 million cycles

Key weight range: 1.1 to 3.0 oz.

Key sensors: Linear hall effect

Key magnets: Neodymium N42

Input/Output:

Midi: In/Out

USB: Full Speed 1.1 compliant

Chassis:

Magnesium extrusion (AZ commercial alloy)

Powder coat baked to 450º F

Power:

110 - 240 V auto sensed

Power consumption: 10 W

Pedal:

4 inputs

Pedal types supported: tip/shield, tip/ring/shield (potentiometer between any 2 of 3)

Auto sensed on power up

Pedal assignment: any midi controller

Assignment method: text menu

Firmware:

Processor: ADI Blackfin DSP 400MHz

Flash memory: 300K (100,000 erase cycles)

Size:

Size folded: 23.3” x 14.5”

Size flat: 46.6” x 14.5”

Weight: 25 lbs

Displays:

Two 128 x 64 organic LEDs (one each of yellow and green)

Controls:

Modulation wheel/volume (dual use)

Octave shift

Setup mode (synth channel assignments)

Alternate effect mode

Navigation arrows

Standby sound selector wheel

Temperature:

Storage temperature: -40 to 80º C

Operating temperature: -20 to 70º C

Frequently Asked Questions:

Where can I see it?

Right now, we’re still working on the finishing touches of the VAX • 77. But once we’re finished, we plan on taking it on the road! We’ll be visiting cities across the U.S. to give players a chance to try out our board. (Once you do, we’re convinced you’ll never look back.) As soon as we fix the dates and locations, we’ll be posting them to our web site, and sending them out to our email list. We look forward to seeing you there!

Do you have any additional information available?

The information on our web site covers the VAX • 77 as it stands right now. But, we are already implementing new features and increasing the capabilities of our software. Once we have more information about the VAX • 77, we will add it to our site, and send it out to players like you. If you want to be the first to know what shape the final VAX • 77 will take, send us a message at sales@infiniteresponse.com and let us know that you want to be on our email list.

Are the units made in Austin? How do I get one?

Every VAX • 77 is handcrafted in the live music capital of the world – Austin, Texas. No matter where you’re from, we would love to have you come by and try out the VAX • 77 in our showroom. And of course, you can pick up your keyboard when you’re here. If you plan to come to Austin, make sure you take advantage of the incredible range of clubs and bands that perform here every night. Many musicians come by for SXSW in the spring, or NAMM in the summer, and we’d be happy to have your keyboard ready for you when you arrive.

What’s the price?

The short answer – we'll let you know as soon as we make that decision. We have been working on the VAX • 77 for months, and we are still adding new features and evaluating the responses of everyone we’ve heard from. When we finally finish our work – when we’ve written the last line of code and made every last tweak – we’ll decide on a price that reflects the quality of our instrument while keeping it well within reach of the live musician. This keyboard has been designed to meet all your needs; we won’t make it impossible to afford.

How do you bend pitch?

Pitch bend is a very important feature for keyboard players, and we want to make sure that we get it right. We have been gathering responses from keyboard players like you, and we think we have found the right way to incorporate pitch bend into the natural flow of your performance. We’re adding that feature now, and as soon as we complete our work, we’ll post more information on our web site.

Are you planning an 88-key version?

When we were designing the VAX • 77, we wanted to build a keyboard that would redefine the word “portable,” and we’ve done just that. To make it fit in the overhead compartment of most commercial airplanes, we had to limit the size to 77 keys. An 88-key version would have exceeded both the weight and size limits. (Airlines frequently have their own restriction; check with your carrier to find out what limitations they have.)

Does the unit come with a sound bank or does it all have to be external MIDI?

While the VAX • 77 is designed to drive all existing synth modules with clear text menus, we consider that to be a rather transitional use of our product. We believe that soft synths are the future. All the underlying technology in the VAX • 77 has been designed to enable you to control laptop generated sounds without ever touching a mouse or it's keyboard. Whether you have a 5-year-old laptop or you are lucky enough to own a Receptor, VST plugins give you a wealth of capability for a fraction of the price of a stand alone synth module. Compare "Ivory" to any stage piano sound. Is there any debate? Explore the offerings from E-Mu and Native Instruments. We think you will agree that the time is right for the VAX • 77 and soft
synths.

Are any upgrades available?

We have a number of innovative "expression tools" planned for the VAX • 77. They will plug into the pedal ports on the right side.

[Pip]

slammah2012 - ok point made enough :roll: Channel after touch!

[Pip]

Teuf
You are right - I've recently got a touch screen phone - but it's still 1 to 2 years before we really see this tech all over the place. I Have an M3 with a touch screen and it's wonderful - all new synths will have this tech in the future.

That aside - when can I buy and origin? :evil:

[slammah2012]

slammah2012 - ok point made enough :roll: Channel after touch!

Good then.... :roll:
 I have the real gear to base my points off of....Pip  
A real Yamaha CS80.... and no touch surface will help recreate the original sound with out the poly AT board.

[fin]

The concept of a multi touch interface on a hardware synth is really really interesting, but with the above concept there is I think a fundamental flaw, which is why put the interface of a hardware analog synth from the 70's on a instrument in 2008.

If the sound was going to be the same, why would you present the user it with the old synths interface, which were badly designed to being with (CS80 is the most unintuative synth ever created!).
What would be interesting is if modern interface techniques were applied, like on the ipod/iphone virtual keyboard, where sliders zoom underneath the finger when touched. Another basic example is the Mg Modulars sequencer, why would you want to reproduce that monster, when you can have something like a lemur style clean and clean vertical slider version.
Who ever brings out something like this, they won't be putting 1970's hardware modelled interface on it (I hope!).

[slammah2012]

Fin...... That is so sad......

old synths interface, which were badly designed to being with (CS80 is the most unintuative synth ever created!).

You are completely off your rocker buddy.......I hope you are just jerking my chain.....
The CS80 is by far, the most intuitive synth out there...........
There is no other combination of Control of a synth to this date that even comes close to its integration with the performer.......

The 80s limitations were in patch preset numbers, and routing as it was a "fixed" hardwired synth.....but there was so many interacting combinations you could address with the split memory structure because the dual footage selectors and master resonance/brilliance and all performance settings were after the dual preset memory slots....
 within the mix combinations of these 14 presets on each channel, you had the sound combination capabilities of 224 presets, and that is without moving any of the 36 footage control combinations.....further giving 8064
combis, and because the Sub oscillator,and portamento,and ringmodulator and channel mixer/master filter macro(for 2 hpf and 2 lpf)
 was after the "memory allocation", you could scroll through the preset buttons during ringmods and portamentos, keeping the sound going, and not abruptly chopping the sound off with a patch change ....It is hard to say the limitation was anything but the weight and the oscillators occasional instabilities.....

 The great leaps and bounds to add more parameters and memory slots, which included performance in the preset, abandoned the players performance.... you had buttons and scroll menu's and no interactions with the tactile synth......

The S.C. prophet and the Roland jupiters, never really could do the CS80 sound,they offered presets, but lost the interaction of the polyAT,Ribbon,portamento/glissando/Sustain types, however I must admit ,aside from the contoll aspect, Arturia has recaptured the sound of the synth to great lengths....S.C. did try PolyAT backtracking with the T8 as did Roland with the A50/A80 series.....dollars spoke louder than performance.

Even the Yamaha CS70M, which intoduced external memory on magneto strips along with secondary lfo structures and key splits, strayed too far away from the performance its big bro was famous for....and settled for the less than functional Channel AT...(If you played one, you know what I am talking about...that springed rod under the keybed)yuk

Sure, grab a Lemur, Kyma and a Continuum, and sure , you will have expression...
The continuum is the control surface that offers back into the equasion,
It has 3 axis per "note on" event (side to side, Front to back, and up and down)however, to cheat a polyAT sound, You must assign the Kyma/Lemur to the same presets over 10 midi channels, as each note played is in its own Channel and uses Channel Aftertouch per note on....

I will embrace a multi pressure, multiple touch screen, if it also includes an integrated playing surface that can double up as a secondary playing surface, like the continuum does in hardware form..... and at the same time allows the grabbing of multiple sliders and knobs on a virtual canvas, and maybe by then, you will make me reconsider the true king of keyboards.....

[Pip]

Slammah do you work for Vax? - it's not the first time I've seen this after touch post!

As I have been reminded on occasions - let's talk ORIGIN