Funny Grunge Sound??

[StevieD]

Let me preface this with I do love Brass. It sounds great and is very expressive. Best trumpet ever but..

   I originally was going to use Brass for a solo instrument only against backing tracks of varying kinds but I soon started to put together symphonic horn sections against no backing and I then noticed that with the instruments alone,, Say a 3 trumpet ensemble,, I can hear a sort of (if I can explain it right) harmonic grunge when they all play in harmony.  I tried EQing it out but it doesn't get rid of it. Like I said, it's kind of a harmonic thing that follows the notes but it is noise,, lower volume than the notes but you soon hear it very clearly when you pay attention. You don't really hear it when a single instrument plays. I thought it might be a tuning thing but I couldn't tune it out either. It does it with or with out the room ambience.  I tried using 3 differen’t trumpet presets but it is still there.

  I do have Brass configured right and it is running properly on my well indowed MAC. I don’t believe it is a computer problem. Everything runs perfectly on my machine including Brass. I am wondering if it is a tonal or sound source problem that might be addressed or some thing I could do to minimize it or get rid of it.  It drives me crazy when I listen to it repeatidly. Possibly the average listener might over look it but I think any one with critical listening skills could catch it. It’s just below the surface.

Any thoughts?
Thank You.

[Kappa]

Hi StevieD,

the reason for which you hear the "noise" is because in harmony mode(when you have selected to play more instruments) there is a special harmonizing algorithm that emulates a unison(only one instrument is playing but it's made to sound like more to reduce CPU load).
Try playing more instances of the same instrument and normally you won't have the same problem but it's going to be more heavy on CPU.

Regards

[StevieD]

Thanks for the reply -

   Oh yes, I did forget to mention everything. I tried to be as specific as I could but obviously not.

    I am using, in this case, three instances of Brass on three different tracks from within Logic Pro 7. As I said, my machine is somewhat substantial although by current standards it is getting less so daily. But what isn't? - G5 - dual 2.7s with 8gigs of RAM.

   So, I have three separate Brass trumpets playing. (with no CPU problems. I’ve run as many as 6 so far.).  I have even frozen tracks to make sure the sound anomaly isn’t CPU but it sounds exactly the same, totally unchanged.

    Like I said before it isn’t a glitch type of thing.  I’m thinking, it’s some kind of sonic thing going on (please excuse the non-scientific terms).   I remember hearing about the need to remove sub-harmonic waves from some synths to improve their sound. This is why I started to eq the signal but maybe eq alone won’t do it. I couldn’t eq it out.  I am wondering if there is Sub-Harmonic signals in Brass that might multiply when instruments are combined in harmony?  I wonder if that component of the signal could be removed some how with out effecting the overall sound?  If indeed that is what the sound I am hearing is. I can’t figure out what it is.

    I am not excluding my play back system (Alesis ProActive 5.1 system(now running in stereo)) but I haven’t had this harmonic grunge with any other combination so far. I am trying the signal out on other platforms.  Remember, it is a noise just below the surface of the main sound but very apparent when you pay attention.  If this were cleaned up, It would make a very good synth (emulator), unbelievable. I still think for a solo instrument it is incredible. I use it all the time for that, when I have bass and drums, or strings, orchestra, etc, or more filling backing track it sounds great.

   By the way I don’t really like the unison mode and I don’t use it. I tried it when I first received brass, so I can’t remember exactly what I didn’t like about it but I remember it didn’t really sound like multiple instruments playing together. It sounded more like an effect. (in my opinion) The individual instruments are terrific though. I love them.  Now, if I can just get them to play together in harmony.

Thanks
StevieD

[slammah2012]

I would try to differ each instrument slightly if using 3 instances...
for example , varying the range setting between Humanize and Computer
to different spots, vary the Spatial position in the room of the 3 instances,
even, changing up the material/type in the modeling....the more different each instance is, the less coupling will occurr due to time alignment...,However if you decide to use the Ambience/reverb, try to make each room sound and level consistant or you may lose realism .

[StevieD]

Thanks for all the suggestions!

   After investigating all the above suggestions to make sure of all possibilities, I started really ripping the settings and sequence apart and trying things.,,,,,, But forget all of that!!!! I made several discoveries. First of all, none of the settings matter!!!

    Ok, I had a three trumpet ensemble in a harmony and counterpoint group with this grunge problem. Trying to work on all the areas at the same time, I decided one of the trumpets would sound better as a French Horn.  I use Garritan Orchestra for orchestrating. The strings, which are fabulous, and the brass, which is so-so, the French horns are great (along with other instruments), I use it a lot.  The sequence with the new French Horn sounds great except for the grunge.  I try them wet, dry, without Brass ambience,, listening to two at a time, one at a time, and all together. It is till there. You can here it there always if you listen very closely, even individually.

     During this time, I am trying the all new suggestions. I say well what the heck, I’m just going to replace all the “Brass” trumpets with Garritan trumpets. Well, of course the performances didn’t quite match from instrument to instrument, and the “Brass” trumpet sounds so much better, but then I made an unbelievable discovery!  The Garritan trumpets had the same exact harmonic grunge!!!  I was very surprised because I have NEVER had this grunge with any other instrumental sequences.  I must confess, though, I haven’t recorded much brass in my 35 or so years in recording.  I was always in Rock n Roll but now I’m working my way into scoring films and I am expanding my horizons. I am still learning to control and manipulate strings and brass to sound real which is important to me.

  So I am sorry Arturia and everybody. It is not “Brass”.  My problem is, I don’t know what it is. Does this happen with real brass? I don’t recall ever hearing it listening live. The higher the range, the more you hear it with multiple harmonies.  I will continue to explore it but any thoughts would be appreciated.

StevieD

[slammah2012]

Sounds like Beating......
When two people whistle at a similar frequency and cross frequency paths,
FM frequencies are acoustically created...Kind of Zippery to explain it....
It could be artifacts in your speakers responding to your harmonies in the ensemble....

[StevieD]

I think what you mean by beating is that harmonic interaction that occurs when two or more notes are either slightly out of tune with each other or, other wise, slightly out of sync with each other,,, Like double tracking a sound source that has a vibrato. It gives you that chorus effect. Usually that doesn’t sound too bad, as long as they are not terribly far apart from each other. Which is why many people use a chorus or even a detuning effect on vocals and guitar, etc. to make it sound more full or just more interesting.  Your whistling example is a good one. I did try to better tune the sources to match for that reason but it didn’t work.

    I don’t think it is this, exactly, but something closely related. I like the term you use artifact. The sound I am hearing is an artifact that follows the notes in sympathy, without discernable tuning.  I later discovered that I heard it ever so slightly even with a single trumpet source but it pops out when two or more are playing in harmony. I am worrying about my play back system but it is not a bad system and I’ve never heard this on other sound source.  Strings Perfect,, Human Voice perfect. Guitar perfect. Even Harmonies.  So, I have to dig in and really find the answer.

   Like I said above I really haven’t been associated with Brass instruments in recording or live.  Not since grade school when I tried to play the trumpet in the school band.  

  So, I don’t have time right now, but within the next week or so, I am going seek out what this has to do with my system, if any or what is endemic to the instruments or whatever.