Hard sync 2>1 not working adjusting phase of Osc 1

[larioso]

Even having osc 2 silent you should be able to get that synced sound.

Did like this for this test alone
- init preset, osc 2 i quiet
- sync 2>1 to hard right
- adjust tune osc 1

You should get that typical synced osc sound.
No change in character.

I can change octave by adding a sub on osc2, should also affect half of periods adjusting phase.
Also tried doing continuous move Sync 2>1 with no change.

I don't think phase is reset synced to osc 2 at all!!!!

Or is there a way through mod matrix to get that characteristic synced sound?

I do it all the time in Prologue with expected result.

Thanks.

EDIT: edited to correct oscillator 1 tune, not as written creating confusion

[larioso]

I looked more into Prologue how it works.

The source for modulation, osc 1 for PL, decides the pitch.
And detuning target, osc 2 for PL, you find spots for that throaty sound.

So doing it this way in Polybrute is not possible, it picks and locks on pitches.
And since target is not continuous on osc 1 tune knob in PB, you have to assign a modulator like mod wheel or similar like sustain env 3 or so. So doing that on Osc 1 I start getting some spots that are usable.

But still a problem since source does not decide pitch but locks target to certain harmonics instead in PB.
A lot of fiddling with Sync knob in soft positions and also the continuous modulator you chose, to figure something out.

[Settings]+ turning Sync 2>1 knob is free for a menu alternative for some settings maybe getting to work like most synths do also. Don't know if this needs hardware features not there, but would be great if firmware could do something in this regard.

[DrJustice]

Edit: I was ninja'd as you posted while I was testing and typing my reply It does work exactly like on the Prologue.

With Sync 2>1 at max, try changing the pitch of the slave oscillator up (VCO 1). Then you'll hear the classic hard sync sync sound. This works as intended (maybe the Prologue has the controls arranged/labelled differently (I'm not familiar with the Prologue), but it's the same thing happening).

With hard sync, the slave always follows the frequency of the master, and as long as the interval is strongly harmonic, e.g. octaves, nothing much happens, but when the slave is tuned to other intervals, the interesting spectra starts to appear as the phase reset od the slave oscillator happens at arbitrary points in waveform.

Gordon Reid of Sound on Sound has a nice explanation of hard sync here here,.

[larioso]

Thanks for all the effort.

Though on Polybrute Osc 1 tune knob is semitones, and not enough resolution.
So at least I am is missing the sweet spots unless I do modulator thing.

Prologue is continous tune on both, but fixed octave selections.

Because of this I did the modulation things in PB, which can be continuous and is by default.
And pitch is not ruled by source, you get serious pitch changes in PB, while source remain same.
So to get something playable, you have to fiddle quite a bit as I found at least.

I get nowhere near the throaty sounds of Prologue in Polybrute, I am afraid.
And way more complex approach in PB, unless your settle for big jumps in pitch and no throat at all.

Even if PB has many other qualities of course. Why I got both.

[larioso]

Screenshot from Prologue manual, will make some demos too.
There is no similarities how Prologue react to detuning.

And also tells why Prologue does not change pitch unless modulation detuning pass octaves.

[larioso]

Two audio examples.

First part is saw, next triangle, next square on each synth.

[DrJustice]

Screenshot from Prologue manual, will make some demos too.
There is no similarities how Prologue react to detuning.

And also tells why Prologue does not change pitch unless modulation detuning pass octaves.

That appears to be exactly the same, only with oscillator 1 and 2 having swapped the roles. So as I suspected the Prologue has the controls arranged/labelled differently.

[larioso]

Korg just chose to have oscillator 1 as source and 2 as target for Sync.

But a world of difference how much definition you get with Prologue.
When you make a fast sweep on PB, you notice a bit, I did not hear it at all otherwise when set.
Just heard harmonics resonance on partials, kind of, no throat thing.
I have not tried the EQ on fw 2, if I can bring high end up better, it's like it's cutting and not all open.

Doing a mod wheel modulation on osc 1 on PB, with one octave range, and you at least get a smooth movement that feels the same in that sense as when I do detune on Prologue.

So to get at least that, Settings button and sync knob could have a menu to do continous knob on osc 1. Now there are only continuous on Mod features.

I don't remember for sure on firmware 1.05 if that was the same as now.

[DrJustice]

I guarantee, there's nothing strange or wrong with the Sync feature - it's the same as in all with synths hard sync. The sync is in hardware, and the firmware support for it has worked since we tested the prototypes.

I attach a "Laser Harp" patch to illustrate it. Not a refined sound design, but it's a sound similar to the classic Jean-Michel Jarre laser harp theme. It uses the mod envelope to sweep VCO 1.

[larioso]

Thanks a lot.

I tested some EQ, and did presence as one but still don't hear any hard sync other than so subtle that I cannot hear immediately.

I do lots of stuff using Metalizer and other things that is clearly usable, sync is not for me I'm afraid.
Possibly some of the soft sync stuff that get a partial that fits well to play.

Anyway, exited and updating firmware right now, so not the least put down by this.

[DrJustice]

Do you not hear this attached sound with the patch I attached? That should be a '"in-your-face" classic hard sync sweep sound - I spent maybe 20 seconds on that patch

[larioso]

Thanks, but my pc crashes with PBC, so don't bother with that.

Did you hear the difference in clarity and definition with Prologue it's obvious you don't use PB for that kind of sound.

And I don't use an LP where Strata do job better either.

[DrJustice]

Not sure what you're getting at here... LP and Strat? I play both styles of guitars. It a small difference, both sound like guitars in much the same way that  a hard sync sweep sounds like a hard sync sweep. As for the exact sound, I did not listen to your Prologue sound - it doesn't matter - a classic hard sync sweep is something I've been doing for 40+ years, and still do without problems on the PB - it's a bog standard synth technique.

The PB does perfectly good hard sync sounds - no problems at all. My example is the most ubiquitous use of hard sync - the classic in your face sweep. Of course you can do sound design in all directions from that basic kind of patch. I really don't see any problems at all. Did the attached sound file not sound like a classic hard sync sweep?

I attach a screenshot of the PBC with the "Laser Harp" patch.

Your initial problem was:

"I don't think phase is reset synced to osc 2 at all!!!!"

That clearly works just fine. The PB does great sync sounds. I don't know what more to do to help.

[larioso]

You helped fine, thanks.
I stand corrected on the phase thing, that was a theory since I did not hear what I expected.
But you seem to see my comment a bit of an attack and you go defensive.
One example is that you did not even download and listen, you did not want to know.

Let me expand and explain a bit.

Referring to LP or Strata, it's about which tool is the best for this or that job!!!!!
- you play it with the same technique, but result is very, very different in sound

Polybrute extend on most things that any synth can do, it's a true blessing to have.
I expected maybe a countryside church of headroom from what I was used to.
- but found something of the cathedral in rome in headroom

But Prologue has it's qualities too. The core sound is more clear and low end more sturdy and defined.
And comparing hard sync this comes through.

Polybrute is a bit muffled in the sound, and this makes hard sync disappear almost entirely in comparison.
If to guess from my experience with electronics, PB is so much more connections inside than most synths due to extensive modulation options, many filters and continous move between them etc. The more connection create more parasite capacitance that may steal some high end. But this is a guess.

Prologue simpler design, just LFO modulation and FM and that is it.

Sequential/DSI has a range of synths. If it was 2015 or so Dave released Prophet 6 as close to legendary Prophet 5 REV 1-3 I suppose with VCOs and all, and yet released Prophet 5/10 again with a pricetag we did not see before. Some swear by the Prophet 5/10 sounding better, confirmation bias or not, don't know.

Some of the polysynths of Sequential range may be from what I read in order best sounding first
- Prophet 10
- Prophet 5(for some reason a review he preferred the 10
- Prophet 6
- OB6
- Take 5
- Prophet 8(some prefer the sound compared to later REV2)
- REV2

Not my opinion, just what I read, I don't own any of them.
Same maker but rated diffferently by users regarding the sound.

Could it be that the simpler analog path inside, the better soundwise?
Those down the list have way more modulation options than at the top, but by many rated below in sound.
Not a scientific research, just from lots of comments since I looked into maybe getting a Sequential one day.

But found Polybrute and perfectly happy with that. Unbelievable what is stucked inside this unit.
But Prologue is a keeper for what it can do.
Hardly see much of keyboard players with just one keyboard, do we.

With guitar as my main instrument, we don't see many that stay with just one guitar either.
I have 9, 4 acoustics and Martin has it's very wooden tone, and Taylor more brigther shimmering tone.

And we mix all these instruments in a mix for a piece of music.
Sometimes just an acoustic guitar and vocals, sometimes full fledged orchestral stuff.
For really good melodies simple arrangement is enough, sometimes a production can compensate for less interesting music content.

Exploring is a good part if music making, and PB offer a lot.

[DrJustice]

I'm glad you got it sorted

It's not a question of me "not wanting to know". I spend quite a bit of my free time to support users, testing gear, moderating etc., and I can't invest too much time in other's subjective/specific/detail sound preferences - sorry about that. However, yes, please consider attributing less characteristics to me, as I try to help - this is not about me, it's about the phase-reset/sync functionality of the PB ;-)

Polybrute is a bit muffled in the sound, and this makes hard sync disappear almost entirely in comparison.
If to guess from my experience with electronics, PB is so much more connections inside than most synths due to extensive modulation options, many filters and continous move between them etc. The more connection create more parasite capacitance that may steal some high end. But this is a guess.

I do not perceive the PB as muffled at all. In fact (as in measurements), it has a very good high frequency extension as you can see here. I get a cutting hard sync sound out of mine, and often have to use the LPFs or EQ to shave off a little high end. If you feel it's muffled, perhaps it's in the mixing/monitoring chain(?) Then again, sound preferences are subjective and we all have different hearing and we hear different things in the sounds and the music, which is perfectly fine.

Exploring is a good part if music making, and PB offer a lot.

Absolutely, it's a lifelong journey! Happy exploring