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Author Topic: the bugged generation  (Read 3490 times)

agodzillar

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the bugged generation
« on: May 19, 2021, 01:45:32 pm »
Hi,

I just left Dave smith instrument's forum talking about the tempest bugged and left undeveloped after a decade. But i had the same problem with the omega8 from studio electronics (arpeggiator section bugged and no more development)
And now I'm on arturia with the KSP.. bugged and not usable until whoever fix it and hopefully will not leave us like DSI or studio electronics with no more update and a product that is not finished. But is hoping for companies to do their job normal ?

My goals are simple. I want to use the KSP live. KSP is .. should be designed for that. The advertising is clearly, live performance with modular world in mind. But it is so bugged that there is no way I take the risk to use it live. So I wonder what is the legal limits for a company to release a product advertise with fancy dj performing with drone cameras turning around him where the reality is you can't use the thing for real.

It's so commun now to update phones, apps, OS that developers consider ok to release something that is not usable. Don't tell me arturia didn't know. They tested the KSP enough to knew things were bugged already but.. hey we booked that dj already for release party so f* it just sell the dam thing ! Basically we are investing for R&D with our money, time, requests, reports.. but never get paid for suffering from it.
Now I'm starting to think it's literally part of the design : Release a shitty-in-process unit and let users find what we did wrong and green wash it : "listening to our consumers".
So yeah. is there really no legal limit to that ? like a consumer protection that would fine a company over malpractice wrong advertising ?
If you think i exaggerate look.. i'm just trying to record steps in a sequence and each time i do it i'm left with a "not off bug" that requires a reboot. That's pretty basic right ? is it because KSP is slave sync ? because because i use cv's out ? because the moon is full ? I don't know I don't care. I just can't - use - this - product !

Andrew Henderson

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Re: the bugged generation
« Reply #1 on: May 19, 2021, 03:04:03 pm »
What exactly are the problems you are having? If you were specific on your issues, perhaps you would get a more enlightened answer.

Have you flashed the latest firmware 2.0 and did a factory reset? The bug fix from this release is enormous and I'm sure a lot of what your experiencing has already been fixed. Anything that is not, please let it be constructively heard, so that things can be worked on to rectify them.

I can understand being frustrated, but ranting with no end goal in mind, other than to rant, is not going to yield you any productive results.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2021, 02:23:46 pm by Andrew Henderson »

AdrianLazerMan

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Re: the bugged generation
« Reply #2 on: May 20, 2021, 10:45:39 am »
@Andrew Henderson his end goal is to understand why companies are behaving like this and where the legal limits for such behaviour are. He didn't rant and he doesn't have to specify all the bugs he is experiencing because we all can imagine that there are just too many to list. Even after the 2.0 update there are still some sync problems if you use a daw on windows and Stuck notes and stuff like this.

Edit:  take everthing I worte with a grain of salt, I don't know how arturia is organised, neither am I a dev with experience in hardware development, this is just my personal experience from working as a software dev for years. Also don't buy stuff directly after it was released if you don't want to be a beta tester.

@agodzilla I'm working as a software dev in a very different field but still think that the same mechanics apply for me as well. So generally it isn't nececcarily the fault of the devs. You just can't predict how long it will take to implement feature A or B. Sometimes you need 10x longer than you thought. This happens not that often but I wanted to illustrate how easy it is to go off the chart. Modern devices and software is often quite complex, way more complex than older stuff thus the chances of getting bugs are way higher and the chances of not seeing those bugs are rising as well. The devs programming the software are (usually/often) not the ones who test it that deeply. You develop a feature, test if it works as intended and then give it to your test department if you have one. You will not test it in every possible use case, so that really is a big problem if you don't have a test department. Also even if they find a bug it can be hard to narrow down where it is coming from. That is the reason modern software has metrics and there are beta phases, this just increases your chance of finding out what is going wrong precisely. This is just not going to work on devices though (imo), you have all of these hardware limitations and investing in more storage so you can constantly log everything just doesn't sound feasible.

So imagine you have a idea for a product, you think it should take amout of time x to develop and put amount of time y on top to be safe.
First hardware prototypes emerge and the software begins to cover the really basic usecases. The marketing department now starts working on the marketing. They will a release date with the devs and project manager, and will use this date from now on in every public post. The marketing gains traction and people get excited for this product. But the development seems to be slower than expected, there are roadblocks nobody could've seen coming ahead. Now you have to decide what to do. Loose the hype and potential customers because you want to publish a finished product, or do you want to loose customers because you publish a unfinished product but you've already got some money to invest in the further development? From my experience, if the company in question isn't drowning in money they will choose the later, which is quite logical from a busieness standpoint.
This happens all the time: Video Games, OS(Win 10 is a great example) etc..
I think modern development is just getting to expensive to finish work completely before releasing anything. And this is ok, if you communicate that to your customers. Which Arturia didn't do. So I would argue that that is more of an issue that releasing an "in development" product. If it would have been labelled as such, I think it would have worked out better.

TL;DR:
Modern development is really complex, if you don't have enough capacity for inhouse testing, you will find yourself in a ocean of bugs, company needs money to improve product, everybody is doing that more or less. Arturia is just really bad at communicating.

P.S.
I'm angry at how this went down too. Arturia here is to blame for a lot. But that stuff just happens.
Other companies might not f**k up their launches that hard, but you never know until you try.
Oh and imo devs are never ever the ones who are really ok with releasing something unfinished, it is more complex than that.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2021, 10:56:18 am by AdrianLazerMan »

agodzillar

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Re: the bugged generation
« Reply #3 on: May 20, 2021, 02:27:06 pm »
Have you flashed the latest firmware 2.0 and did a factory reset?
2.0 yes; reset no

I don't have enough time to list problems. I don't only use KSP in my studio and the point of my post (in general discussion) is about a general thing that starts to be not manageable for the pro user. It's not the money it's months, thinking of a setup, going a direction, choosing a sequencer therefore a workflow you develop as far as a flycase and weight and then you'r stuck with multiple products bugged and limited because development is always a problem.

I don't think it's silly to say there should be a juridic limit to this.
Imagine you buy a wasching machine and it breaks after a year. One could have argued before "hey it broke, bad luck to you the constructor is not responsible you should know better buying a Behringer washing machine" but there is a magical thing called warranty that puts a pressure on constructors to make sure it doesn't brake within 2y. I see where we could make a parallel and say if you buy a product new but still has some development bugs on basic functions he advertised for then any user could send it back and get full refund for 2 years !
I would have returned my KSP no doubt ! and buy an ER101 i was considering.

agodzillar

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Re: the bugged generation
« Reply #4 on: May 20, 2021, 02:33:11 pm »
AdrianLazerMan

Thanks for explaining. Yeah i'm sure there's a reason for everything.
Companies are amoral entities that make money that's their end game. Nothing more than money.
Maybe 50y ago.. family business father&son's type of vintage business but not anymore. cash cash cash.
There's only one way to improve quality for users it's a legal frame to avoid abuse. Prices would go up yes.. but we would all be doing more music than bug reports forums and updates that is usb for this one, teensy shit for this other one, audio update, microSD update..  ! oh i mentioned tempest and omega i have disting EX from expert sleepers sent back a week ago.. bug bug bug this is an absolute nightmare.

agodzillar

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Re: the bugged generation
« Reply #5 on: May 20, 2021, 02:47:44 pm »
can you belive it.. typing these messages above i was using KSP for my MS10 using Hz/v and Strig and found another bug  ::)
KSP does not send notes above D#4 in hz/v.  So using octave 0 setting, you'r at risk of have pitch limited. You have to compensate synth up to play KSP "-1"
those kind of things...
i mean talking about development and research.. how can you miss that ?
« Last Edit: May 20, 2021, 02:49:30 pm by agodzillar »

AdrianLazerMan

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Re: the bugged generation
« Reply #6 on: May 20, 2021, 05:48:32 pm »
I wouldn't get so far with saying that greedy coorporations are the root of this problem.
In fact I work for a family business that is really nice to me and my co-workers. I have the private number of both of the ceo's and can call them if there is a problem that I need to talk about with them, I already did this in the past and everything was resolved in like 10min. The employees and their families really matter to them. Still we face the same issues I described earlier. The fact that you received a finished soft/hardware product 50 years ago is simply that most of those products were much simpler. Most companies can't really afford the whole development of something new anymore because of the complexity, it's just really expensive nowadays to produce a competitive product. So you will define a goal which acts as your starting point, from that point on you start selling stuff and use some of the money coming in for further development. Of course you only should sell the starting point to customers and make it clear that everything else that you planned is just this, planned ;).I can't stress this enough: there is almost no other way for most applications. Testing analog gear is wayyyyy simpler, testing simple code is as well. But the more code there is, the more bugs you will have and at one point it is almost impossible for finding each one. Furthermore fixing a bug can cause a new one or a whole series. If all the coorporations would only release "perfect" software we would not have software at all.

"How can you miss that" that is a question I ask my myself around once a month, when a bug is surfacing that is so obvious that I can not believe that nobody ever reported that before.
You can't prevent these things from happening, you can reduce them by a lot with proper testing, for example with autonomus testing, but then you also have to test the test and it's not that cheap to basically build and program a robot that stresstests your hardware. Again, I think arturia handled the situation badly. They didn't really communicate with the angry customers, which imo they should've done. They don't seem to spend a lot of time around this forum, which is bad as well, but blaming the devs or the company for bugs is not really fair.

agodzillar

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Re: the bugged generation
« Reply #7 on: May 21, 2021, 11:13:56 am »
Yes really I don't think i said "developers were responsible". I understand it's a larger process. I'm just saying there should be a legal limit to this else I create a BS company tomorrow and advertise some elon musk level functions functions but sell an empty chip that I promise to work on if I have time later maybe and never do.

hey... I'll write an official letter to Arturia saying I'm stuck with a tool I can't use. Retractation period is off but I still want to return the product and buy something that works. let's see.

erstlaub

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Re: the bugged generation
« Reply #8 on: May 21, 2021, 06:54:41 pm »

Andrew Henderson

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Re: the bugged generation
« Reply #9 on: May 21, 2021, 11:51:31 pm »
I am still not hearing anything constructive, in these posts.   ???  Can someone please mention some actual and specific bugs, with reproduction steps?  All I am reading is a bunch of hyperbole, about how the unit doesn't work whatsoever and this is definitely not the case.  The unit more than works and is currently capable of accomplishing a lot, for many of us.   8)

There is a huge difference between being completely useless and just not catering to your personal needs (which even then, I highly doubt the unit is bringing you absolutely nothing of value).  ::)

The devs and beta team are working very hard to get this product up to snuff, which I think shows in the recently released, FW 2.0.  There are still plans to further develop this product, so please, mention some actual bugs with reproduction steps, so we can all work together to get this done.  If even half the effort was put into doing that, instead of the constantly long and redundant posts in this (and many other) threads, I think we would all benefit greatly.

Thank you.

synthcreep

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Re: the bugged generation
« Reply #10 on: May 22, 2021, 01:52:06 am »
I have not upgraded yet myself due to being gun shy since the KSP has destroyed a full 16 slots worth of projects early on and not looking forward to an hour or so of tedium to complete the full backup and restore.   The process requires backing up all projects (one at a time because the MCC is user hostile), testing that a single restore works before committing to it, upgrading the KSP, factory resetting the KSP, reloading global settings so I don't lose the drum map and then again one at a time loading projects back and hoping nothing is messed up. 

There have been reports in this forum of projects being lost due to an off by one issue when saving.  Andrew, any chance you know if that has been identified and fixed? 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_2xAo-pubDU

It's hard to consider 2.0 as a success if it introduces show stopper bugs like that one.



agodzillar

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Re: the bugged generation
« Reply #11 on: May 24, 2021, 01:30:25 pm »
I am still not hearing anything constructive, in these posts.   ???  Can someone please mention some actual and specific bugs,
Please give up we can't explain you each time that this is not the bug report forum and that we are not reporting bugs.
You sound as deaf cult member who wants some confirmation bias to preserve it's dear leader.

Andrew Henderson

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Re: the bugged generation
« Reply #12 on: May 24, 2021, 02:14:42 pm »
I am still not hearing anything constructive, in these posts.   ???  Can someone please mention some actual and specific bugs,
Please give up we can't explain you each time that this is not the bug report forum and that we are not reporting bugs.
You sound as deaf cult member who wants some confirmation bias to preserve it's dear leader.

Wow.  Well excuse me for trying to help.  Just to inform you, I am a beta tester for Arturia and work very hard with them, on getting complaints settled and bugs fixed.  If you don't want to help me, help you, then unfortunately you will have to live with the disappointments you are experiencing, because clearly you are far too above me, to need my help. 

 8)
« Last Edit: May 24, 2021, 02:21:40 pm by Andrew Henderson »

Andrew Henderson

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Re: the bugged generation
« Reply #13 on: May 24, 2021, 02:48:02 pm »
I have not upgraded yet myself due to being gun shy since the KSP has destroyed a full 16 slots worth of projects early on and not looking forward to an hour or so of tedium to complete the full backup and restore.   The process requires backing up all projects (one at a time because the MCC is user hostile), testing that a single restore works before committing to it, upgrading the KSP, factory resetting the KSP, reloading global settings so I don't lose the drum map and then again one at a time loading projects back and hoping nothing is messed up. 

There have been reports in this forum of projects being lost due to an off by one issue when saving.  Andrew, any chance you know if that has been identified and fixed? 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_2xAo-pubDU

It's hard to consider 2.0 as a success if it introduces show stopper bugs like that one.

Sorry for the delayed response on this.  I just got around to testing this out and I cannot reproduce.  Everything is as expected on my end.  Doing anything with Project 1, has no bearing on Project 2 and vise versa.  I followed the video step by step, more than once.

I wonder if there are other variables, at play here?  Perhaps settings are different between our units, which may have an effect on the final outcome, even if they don't seem, directly related?

Was a factory reset performed on the unit, after the flashing of FW 2.0?

Any other info to help reproduce, would be much appreciated, as I would love to help further.

agodzillar

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Re: the bugged generation
« Reply #14 on: May 25, 2021, 12:35:47 pm »
Hey i found the solution to my problem !
I eBayed the thing for 250£ and moved on to more serious solutions.
I sold my too-limited Keystep for the too-buged KSP so I guess I should remember to stop buying Arturia from now on (oh and the not-so-fun microbrute) So anyway good luck with debugging forums trying to reproduce bugs ::)
i'll go do music  ;D

« Last Edit: May 25, 2021, 04:51:26 pm by agodzillar »

 

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