Legato and Retrig Mode not really working

[Karamba]

When choosing Legato or Retrig on the keyboard controller none of them are reliable. Legato works most but not all the time, Retrig is half legato and retrig.
Then Why is it possible to choose Legato + Retrig at the same time  (See picture).

Am I understanding this wrong or is it just not working at all like it should be  ?

[LBH]

The Legato and Retrigger controls is not intended for "Poly" mode. In manual it says for for Mono, but it also works well for Unison mode i. Test it.

In "Mono" and "Unison" when playing legato style ("linked notes" as the manual rather confusingly calls them),
then if you have "Glide/+Portamento" turned "On"/ highlighted, and the "Legato" turned "On" then you only hear the effect when you play the notes legato style (Legato playing = no pause between notes at all, new note played while another is still down).
If you have pause between the notes played (lift all fingers from the keys with a pause between the notes = not legato), then you don't get the effect.
If you use the same settings except having the "Legato" turned "Off"/ not highlighted, the you have the effect on all notes played no matter how they are played.

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This must be a bug Arturia: The retrigger has been turned around. Logically it should retrigger when it's "On"/ highlighted. And it's so in the old Modular.

But as the Retrigger work now, then In "Mono" and "Unison" if you have the "Retrigger" turned "On"/ highlighted, then the envelopes don't retrigger if you play legato style.
The envelopes retrigger when the "Retrigger" is turned "Off"/ not highlighted - no matter how you play the notes.
Let's say you have a attacked sound, then you only hear the attack in the mode where the envelopes retrigger.
If you create a sound with a very small Decay only so the sound die before you hit the next mode playing legato and in the mode with no retrigger, then you'll hear no sound for the legato played note.

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You can combine all the settings for Legato and Retrigger.

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Hope this helps even if there is the mentioned retrigger button bug to consider.

[Karamba]

Thank you LBH. To be honest I'm confused why there is a need for a retrig button AND a legato button, in my experience when legato is on then it means retrig is off and vice versa, a legato on and off switch would be enough.

What is clear is the Retrig button function is inversed, this is clearly an error. For the Legato, I have tried on and off and the result is the same (with a slow attack and decay) whatever I play. However I haven't updated the Modular V3 yet as I'm scared of spending hours trying to fix a failed update so I won't try before I know it's fixed.

Arturia,

1) please first fix the Retrig Button, on and off is inversed.

For the Legato I'll check again when the Retrig is working. I'm amazed at the amounts of bugs there are for a new version of a product that was already reported with many bugs to fix, what are you guys in Arturia doing??

[LBH]

Legato is actually a playing style. Try and look legato up on the web.

The Legato mode you refer to is only about how the glide/ portamento works according to your playing style. When legato is on it only work when you play legato, but work all the time if off no matter how you play.
But to work you also must be sure you have glide/ portamento on.

In the manual - Read about Glide (The function beside the wheels), and read about Portamento that can make the glide/ portamento to work like glissando in the Keyfollow sextion right of the buttons you talk about. Try also and look glissando up on the web.
If you don't have any glide/portamento effect on, the you will not get any effect using the "Legato" button. It's related.

Try the example setting i described in my previous post.

Hope this will help.

You can find manuals here: https://www.arturia.com/support/updates&manuals

[Karamba]

Legato is actually a playing style. Try and look legato up on the web.

The Legato mode you refer to is only about how the glide/ portamento works according to your playing style. When legato is on it only work when you play legato, but work all the time if off no matter how you play.
But to work you also must be sure you have glide/ portamento on.

In the manual - Read about Glide (The function beside the wheels), and read about Portamento that can make the glide/ portamento to work like glissando in the Keyfollow sextion right of the buttons you talk about. Try also and look glissando up on the web.
If you don't have any glide/portamento effect on, the you will not get any effect using the "Legato" button. It's related.

Try the example setting i described in my previous post.

Hope this will help.

You can find manuals here: https://www.arturia.com/support/updates&manuals

Thank you LBH and t hank you for your help. I am not talking about the portamento or glide, I'm talking about the VCA enveloppe when Legato is being used. My understanding of how Legato should be working in a synthesizer:

When notes played closely or "linked" the sequence of notes is treated as one sound with the envelope settings applied (10 sounds in sequence encapsulated in 1 envelope).
When Legato is off, each note triggers the envelope, so there are as many envelopes triggered as notes played (10 notes in sequence, 10 envelopes triggered).

I'm not talking about the portamento or glide.Let's say I don't ever want to use Portamento or glide, The Legato option should have an effect on how the envelopes are being triggered (or not).

Legato->10 notes played, 1 VCA envelope being used from beginning to end.
No Legato-> 10 notes =  10 VCA envelopes being used, 1 for each note.

Arturia Manual quotes: " [..] The “legato” button, active when the synthesizer is in monophonic mode, allows the activation of the portamento – or “glide” in English – freely on all of the notes when it is active. If you wish to only use portamento on notes that are linked, deactivate the legato mode. [..]" .

Nothing is mentioned about the envelope relationship with legato, this is what I'm interested about. It's not the first and certainly not the last time something is missing or wrong  in the manual so I'm just pointing that out. When it comes to legato and envelopes it doesn't work for me the way it works with other synthesizers.
 

[LBH]

Nothing is mentioned about the envelope relationship with legato, this is what I'm interested about.

What you talk about is actually more about the way the "Retrigger" is working now.
I don't think i understand how you understand the "Legato" function.

As said - the "Legato" is used in combination with the Glide/ Portamento functions.  "Legato" in thi button is refering to how the function is working in relation to the way you play. It don't have any effect if you don't use Glide/ Portamento. That's correct behavior.  The section "3.6.4 The play modes" on page 47-48 in the manual. The Glide/ Portamento is mentioned for the "Legato" function. Just like you qoute. It's said it's related then.
Remember Legato is "linked notes". That's why it's confusing Arturia use both legato/ and linked notes. It's actually  just legato. At least it should be explained, that linked notes actually are a legato playing style the player use.
Also the manual actually turned things around about when the legato playing is involved in the function or not. It's confusing. Arturia fix this.
You can't have a function that make you as a person play legato style except a long release in a way may can be seen as something in that direction without being legato.

The "Legato" button function has not relation to the Envelopes. The word legato refer to the way the player play.
Combined with the "Retrigger" you get different playmaodes involving the envelopes.

If you actually want the "Retrigger" and the "Legato" to do the same thing, then i can understand if you think it's wrong. But it's not wrong except the "Retrigger"  button  wrongly is reversed as we agree.

[LBH]

Hi Karamba,

I forgot to ask you abut this:

When it comes to legato and envelopes it doesn't work for me the way it works with other synthesizers.

Can you give an example on a synth that have both "Retrigger" and "Legato" that work in another way?
If so i would like to have a look at it.

To me though, the most important things about things like iis, that the functions work as they should also without button issues, and that the manual explains everything correct, in a not confusing way. Arturia could do the manuals much better.

Cheers

[Karamba]

Hi Karamba,

I forgot to ask you abut this:

When it comes to legato and envelopes it doesn't work for me the way it works with other synthesizers.

Can you give an example on a synth that have both "Retrigger" and "Legato" that work in another way?
If so i would like to have a look at it.

To me though, the most important things about things like iis, that the functions work as they should also without button issues, and that the manual explains everything correct, in a not confusing way. Arturia could do the manuals much better.

Cheers

Hi LBH,

My experience is that Legato and envelopes are usually linked together when playing legato style or not. So maybe the functions used in the Modular V seem redundant to me or designed to act in a different way.

The Moog Mini V2 (Arturia) has a legato mode. If Legato is on, envelopes are not re-trigerred after each note and each note follows on the envelope progression where the previous note left off.
If Legato is off, the envelope is re-triggered from zero with each note.
(However, in the Mini V3 this doesn't work even though it is supposed to be as mentioned in the manual.)

I guess my confusion comes from the fact that in some synth there's one button to do the same job as "legato" and "retrig", the 2 functions are linked together. Legato ON = Retrig OFF; Legato OFF = Retrig ON.

Another modular plugin named "Primer" by audible genius works the same way. I can't think of other synths right now.

Maybe my twisted mind is seeing flaws where there aren't haha 

[LBH]

Hi Karamba,

Thanks.

Yes it's true that MINI V have a one knob legato and that is is related to the envelopes.
And it actually do behave as described in the manual. Try this:
1. Set the Legato Switch to "Off".
2. Create a plucksound with the Loudness Contour (VCA) set to short decay and no attack and no sustain. Play a note and without lifting the finger play  another note that have playmode priority (legato style playing) - when the decay is at zero (Sound faded out).
When pressing the second note the result is that - you hear sound- It retrigger.

3. Now lift your fingers from the keyboard and then set the Legato Switch to "On".
4. Do the same as i describe in 2. When pressing the second note the result is that - you hear no sound - It don't retrigger.

If your MINI V don't work proper, then have a look in the manual about play modes.
Be sure the second played note have priority. If you set the play mode to "Last", then you are sure.
The note played need to have priority to get sound.

The Modular way of doing it give more options. It's more fleksibel.

The Legato Switch on MINI V3 - (In MINI V2 there are 3 settings, that i also think was wrong or not working) - is graphically stuck on center position when it should be to the right for "On", and that's a fault Arturia. Please fix this too.

I don't know about Primer thanks.  But i looked it up, and see it's a freeware synth with essential functions. I don't think it have the same fleksibilty as modular. A legato will probably work as the one in MINI V. Something like that is normal for synths that do not have legato and retrigger apart or what the same functions are called in those synths that do have both.

I hope you got it now. I believe so.

Seeing flaws where there is none we all can do. Sometimes the flaws are ther though. Could have been here, but as i see it with my twisted mind, i will have to say no there are no functional flaw in Modulars "Retrigger" and "Legato" functions - only the flaws in the manual and in the GUI.