PolyBrute Midi Keyoff instead of Key down

[Pincho Paxton]

My PolyBrute is connected to the Yamaha Genos. I like to combine the sound with a piano for example. But some of the new PolyBrute sounds are creating a bug where the piano changes to key off instead of key down. You can't get it back to key down without turning off the Genos, and back on again. The Harp Off is one of the bugged sounds on the PolyBrute.

[Pincho Paxton]

Any news on this? I thought it would be fixed by now with a new update. It's holding me up playing the Polybrute.

[larioso]

So how is this connected might be good to start with.

#1. Din MIDI from PB to Genos playing on PB?
#2. DIN MIDI from Genos to PB playing on Genos?
#3. Sequencer or daw involved in between and maybe USB MIDI?

If #1 and just on some PB sounds I am thinking turn off some midi stuff sent from PB in global settings.

[Pincho Paxton]

So how is this connected might be good to start with.

#1. Din MIDI from PB to Genos playing on PB?
#2. DIN MIDI from Genos to PB playing on Genos?
#3. Sequencer or daw involved in between and maybe USB MIDI?

If #1 and just on some PB sounds I am thinking turn off some midi stuff sent from PB in global settings.

#1
The mistake is in PolyBrute using Keyoff I don't think you can fix it without an update.

[larioso]

If you play with a foot pedal on PB, and have wrong polarity set it would be something like that.

I tested to a Kawai piano and see nothing strange about it.
And to have something like that on a particular preset is nothing I ever heard of.
It would be always or never, kind of.

I had a  UC33 controller connected to computer once, and created midi ports over usb.
That had a firmware update to fix a similar thing, while nothing played it had wrong polarity so last note hung.
If it's always high(current on) when resting, and it was the other way around. Long ago, so don't remember.

I would look for firmware update on Genos, maybe.
Or look if to turn off something in PB it is sending, like aftertouch or something.
And a certain preset could have settings for aftertouch that could explain if just some presets.

There is nothing wrong with PB in general that I could find.

To check if midi port is ok, you could connect midi in to midi out on PB, and set local off when playing on PB.

[Pincho Paxton]

If you play with a foot pedal on PB, and have wrong polarity set it would be something like that.

I tested to a Kawai piano and see nothing strange about it.
And to have something like that on a particular preset is nothing I ever heard of.
It would be always or never, kind of.

I had a  UC33 controller connected to computer once, and created midi ports over usb.
That had a firmware update to fix a similar thing, while nothing played it had wrong polarity so last note hung.
If it's always high(current on) when resting, and it was the other way around. Long ago, so don't remember.

I would look for firmware update on Genos, maybe.
Or look if to turn off something in PB it is sending, like aftertouch or something.
And a certain preset could have settings for aftertouch that could explain if just some presets.

There is nothing wrong with PB in general that I could find.

To check if midi port is ok, you could connect midi in to midi out on PB, and set local off when playing on PB.

But it didn't do it before the latest update, and the update did include some new key off sounds. It's the key off sounds that trigger it. Plus it's not just doing it with the Genos, it's doing it with any MIDI send to any device. The Genos was just an example, but there's another thread about it by someone else.

[larioso]

It's called Release Harp(x.H2 among factory 2.0 sounds).

I looked at midi monitor in daw, and pressing key it sends note-on and then note-off as key is released.
What is common is that note-off is sent as note-on with velocity zero.
This is not the case with PB it seems which sends note-off message with release velocity.

All midi gear should be able to receive any note-off, like note-on with zero velocity or note-off with possible release velocity. I think it's in specs since the 80's.

Anyway, 3 quick taps on Stop button on sequencer send AllNotesOff and should spare you the need to turn equipment off and on.

I tested with both Kawai MP7SE and Nordlead 2X and notice nothing funny. But you have to play with this long release in mind of course.

[Pincho Paxton]

It's called Release Harp(x.H2 among factory 2.0 sounds).

I looked at midi monitor in daw, and pressing key it sends note-on and then note-off as key is released.
What is common is that note-off is sent as note-on with velocity zero.
This is not the case with PB it seems which sends note-off message with release velocity.

All midi gear should be able to receive any note-off, like note-on with zero velocity or note-off with possible release velocity. I think it's in specs since the 80's.

Anyway, 3 quick taps on Stop button on sequencer send AllNotesOff and should spare you the need to turn equipment off and on.

I tested with both Kawai MP7SE and Nordlead 2X and notice nothing funny. But you have to play with this long release in mind of course.

OK, but still here's the other thread... https://forum.arturia.com/index.php?topic=108167.0

[larioso]

But you confirmed you used DIN MIDI?
I think you will narrow down your issue quicker if you stick to what happends here.

USB start to have issues with cables longer than 1.5m already, as personal experience.
And why midi interfaces to computer does not have longer cables than that. Usually 1m.

And even these interfaces I had some issues with a lamp that had a transformer rather close, when litting it while computer up midi over usb crack up and I have to restart those. Don't have that lamp any longer, but while I did I always lit lamp before starting computer.

It does not take much to screw up usb midi. Even glitches on mains power may be a problem.

And if having audio interface on daw computer through usb I would start looking there, and not use the same usb root for midi and audio to start with. There was an incident with Cubase at Steinberg forum as I remember that one guy got it fixed using usb on other usb root hub that was not audio for the midi interface.

Computers I had was one usb root hub for front usb and another for back usb.

I use RME internal cards for audio not to rely anything on usb. It's not designed for that extensive high throughput use, as I see it at least. Never a single issue with audio using internal cards.

I saw nothing funny about normal key down/up on PB. But maybe have to do longer recording to daw, and then play back to find if something is missing. If there are no note-off for a certain note-on there will be real long durations of some notes missing note-off. That might be one test to do.

If problem is there primarily on release based sounds, with long releases there might be an issue that internal processor does not cope or something.

If you can, make a longer recording to daw to trap if any notes are missing it's note-off, will be real long duration then. Sequencers in daw always present each note with a duration meaning it needs it's note-off to calculate that.

But if you start to use controller, and morphée and such you may send midi CC to Genos that might confuse it having completely other functionality to those midi CC than PB does.

And disconnent anything usb midi while testing at least.

If having a recording in a sequencer is really good proof something is wrong and may help devs quite a bit to narrow down. I will do recordings with PB soon and will keep track if anything is out of order.

[larioso]

Did some simple tests and recorded while fooling around a bit
- some twohanded normal playing, that generated aftertouch a couple of times
- some twohanded chromatic scale
- some single hand c-scale up and down

Attached are some graphs how it looks i daw, some notes become legato some not.

So in general I see nothing abnormal.
This is one way to collect data to narrow down a bit.

EDIT: I forgot to say I use the Release Harps(x.H2 on factory 2.0) if possibly related to release presets.

[Pincho Paxton]

But you confirmed you used DIN MIDI?
I think you will narrow down your issue quicker if you stick to what happends here.

USB start to have issues with cables longer than 1.5m already, as personal experience.
And why midi interfaces to computer does not have longer cables than that. Usually 1m.

And even these interfaces I had some issues with a lamp that had a transformer rather close, when litting it while computer up midi over usb crack up and I have to restart those. Don't have that lamp any longer, but while I did I always lit lamp before starting computer.

Anyway I have tested it again, and I can't remember where I triggered the problem so it is working at the moment.

It does not take much to screw up usb midi. Even glitches on mains power may be a problem.

And if having audio interface on daw computer through usb I would start looking there, and not use the same usb root for midi and audio to start with. There was an incident with Cubase at Steinberg forum as I remember that one guy got it fixed using usb on other usb root hub that was not audio for the midi interface.

Computers I had was one usb root hub for front usb and another for back usb.

I use RME internal cards for audio not to rely anything on usb. It's not designed for that extensive high throughput use, as I see it at least. Never a single issue with audio using internal cards.

I saw nothing funny about normal key down/up on PB. But maybe have to do longer recording to daw, and then play back to find if something is missing. If there are no note-off for a certain note-on there will be real long durations of some notes missing note-off. That might be one test to do.

If problem is there primarily on release based sounds, with long releases there might be an issue that internal processor does not cope or something.

If you can, make a longer recording to daw to trap if any notes are missing it's note-off, will be real long duration then. Sequencers in daw always present each note with a duration meaning it needs it's note-off to calculate that.

But if you start to use controller, and morphée and such you may send midi CC to Genos that might confuse it having completely other functionality to those midi CC than PB does.

And disconnent anything usb midi while testing at least.

If having a recording in a sequencer is really good proof something is wrong and may help devs quite a bit to narrow down. I will do recordings with PB soon and will keep track if anything is out of order.

Well cables wouldn't choose which sounds can be Key Up, and which sounds will be Key Down, only the PolyBrute can change which is which. That's why changing polarity won't work, because all that would do is swap the working sounds to none working sounds. I will keep testing different things out.

Anyway I have tested it again, and I can't remember what I pressed to trigger the problem, so it is working again now for the moment.

[larioso]

I had 4 Yamaha digital pianos, and they all had unusuall modes for midi input.
Either one midi channel works to play a recorded song, another for right hand, and one for left hand, yet another for second right hand and whatnot.
And there were modes that just went directly to keyboard as it is functioning right now. This is what I used for sequencing mostly. And I had to use a lot of system exclusive for various settings too.

Without knowing Genos, I would look at that too. Maybe block midi CC of various sorts etc.

There might be something you touch on PB that sends stuff that is interpreted as hold/sustain pedal or something. That would appear as if there is no note-off. There are 3 pedals on pianos, sustenuto or whatever it is called as well.

Some gear like Hammond double up with mod wheel also turning leslie on/off, as well as other controllers.

There is loads of stuff to configure in a workstation like Genos.

There is nothing mysterious about key off sounds as for Release Harp as an example.
The MOD ENV DADSR has everything down to zero but sustain that is 100%.
The a bunch of modulations in matrix to MOD ENV.
As you press a key MOD ENV stays on sustain giving 100%, and as you release key it goes zero.

Press down a key raise pitch one octave, and release it restore pitch to normal

Nothing strange is done in midi over this. Key down sends note-on, key up sends note-off.