PBConnect Automation Protocol when used as VST?

[jezric]

Hey folks, this has been driving me mad. Typically, automation of VSTs or hardware synths is done through MIDI CC. The PolyBrute is no exception to this except when the PBConnect software/VST is used, at which time (from what I gather) it switches over to NMTP to directly communicate with the software.

When running as a VST, in your DAW you can setup automation lanes to subscribe to these parameter changes, however this doesn't happen through MIDI CC output from the VST (the VST doesn't support MIDI output). So, what is it?  I have been searching around the web for details on what the difference is between MIDI CC and "automation" in DAWs with no luck.

The limitation I am running into with how this is setup is, I need to explicitly setup an automation lane and set it to a particular parameter in order to capture the knob movements from the PB. There doesn't seem to be a way to setup the DAW (Cakewalk in my case, but I think it's the same for Logic, Cubase and Live) to just receive any detected parameter changes. I need to explicitly setup each one that I intend to capture, which kills the workflow.

Anyone out there have details about what's going on here? Why wouldn't PBConnect VST just support MIDI output so you can capture the MIDI CC data directly?

[larioso]

You just need to setup that PB sends midi CC in global settings and that knobs do too.
Don't remember if on or off as default from start and exakt wording of settings.

Then just record in Cakewalk(I use Sonar myself, a little older). I don't use VST's for PB at all, just din midi.
This midi CC recorded is just there and you open a lane for it, if not already open.
You don't have to plan anything ahead.
(Some daws like StudioOne always convert to automation which becomes a mess for realtime recording midi CC)

In manual at the end somewhere is a list of which midi CC for each knob.

And you can just record knob movement in separate recorded clip if you like to focus on that alone, listening to what else you recorded before. Just create a new midi track for this purpose pointing to PB.

Have fun....

[jezric]

If you run PBConnect the PB will not send MIDI CC data.

So, I guess the point is, there is no way to use PBConnect and capture knob movements at the same time without using automation lanes which seem to need to be setup before capture.

I did see the Send CC option in Global (in PBConnect, which is off by default), hoping that it would solve the problem and I could record MIDI CC while using PBConnect, but it still does not send MIDI CC data while PBConnect is running.

[larioso]

It's your choice of course, but I see only more complicated setup with VST involved - and you noticed too.
First is usb connections with limited length, then application in between.
Prepare automation lanes, activate automation write stuff etc.

Just using midi you can improvise and turn any knobs you want without any planning first.
If you want to adjust anything manually afterwords you can open the lanes for those midi CC.
Just take notes which knob is what CC.

Using VSTs in PB will translate those midi CC from PB to VST automation, but they are there all the time if you want them. There was a topic here on forum one guy could not find Morph knob as automation in VST, so guess that has to be used as midi CC anyway, as I recall. Just create another midi track, and use midi ports towards PB using that on the side if you like VST for the rest.

Just giving some options if you want them.....

[jezric]

Thanks, I do appreciate the replies.

Yeah, I'm not blocked from capturing the CC etc as if there was no PBConnect, but they went to all this trouble to create this awesome software companion and it can't really be used easily (at least for automation, which was a big selling point for it).

I have posted this elsewhere (facebook, cakewalk, etc.) but came here specifically thinking that perhaps Arturia devs look at these and maybe do something to improve the experience. I guess I can only hope. 

[larioso]

But isn't this workflow as for all VST Instruments, preparing an automation lane and then arm for write?
- you have to plan ahead
- VST style automation and a daw is like that

Your questions
"Why wouldn't PBConnect VST just support MIDI output so you can capture the MIDI CC data directly?"

This looks to me like you look for midi record, not typical VST approach.
Advantage of VST is that you get names for each lane to load, not needing notes what midi cc do what.
I just keep some post-it notes for that around.

But daws usually have a conversion of midi stuff to automation that you can use once midi is recorded.
This is how Sonar help says

"Converting MIDI controllers to envelopes
MIDI controllers you edit in the Piano Roll view and MIDI envelopes you create in the Track view Clips pane are actually separate data, even if they control the same parameter. Both kinds of envelopes are visible in the Clips pane, and should generally not be used to control the same parameter. You can convert Piano Roll view envelopes to Track view envelopes by selecting the time range and tracks that the Piano Roll envelopes occupy, and using Track view Clips > Convert MIDI Controllers To Envelopes command."

So unless the parameter recording in PB is used

[jezric]

I figured out the solution (for Cakewalk at least), in the PBConnect VST Window, Cakewalk provides automation Read & Write toggles. If you turn on the "W" toggle, the track will then capture ANY automation (knob movement) from the PBConnect VST. So, it will automatically start creating track automation lanes (envelopes) for any knob you touch (that supports automation).

There are plenty of VSTs which transmit MIDI data (NI Maschine, VCV Rack, NI Reaktor, etc.), so I don't think it would be outside of the norm for the PBConnect VST to transmit MIDI CC data, they just chose to use VST (track) automation/envelope data instead. Maybe a limitation is how they implemented the communication between the hardware and software, or just simply a choice.

I think a lot of people prefer MIDI CC data as it's more portable, meaning typically DAWs store it inside of MIDI Clips as you mentioned, and I agree with.

I guess the feedback out of this (if Arturia is monitoring ), is that if possible have the VST output MIDI CC in addition to the VST track automation so users can decide which method works best for their workflow.

[larioso]

I remember Cubase has loads of settings to decide which midi CC become automation or remain as midi, or both even.
For every CC you can set how it is to be treated as recorded.

So maybe same kind of configuration in PB Vst could be useful.