Sample engine pitch cannot be modulated when Granular module is on.

[Igro]

Hi.

I found out, that the Sample engine pitch cannot be modulated with an LFO, ENVs and etc, when the Granular module is on. Was this made with a purpose?

Thank you.

[LBH]

Hi,

Sure you can.
If you can't, then there must be another reason.

Cheers

[alpha-w]

I have a similar issue, but in the wavetable engine. I try to modulate the pitch with an envelope and the maximum amount displayed is +/-0.5. So the pitch is modulated a little bit, but not the amount I want,e.g.12 semitones.
In former times I programmed Reaktor (from NI) and based on that experience (with Reaktor) it seems that in Pigments some recalculation is wrong..... maybe the envelopes offer different amounts for modulations than the base oscillators do? Could that be?

I am using Windows 10 with Cubase 9.0.40.

[LBH]

I have a similar issue, but in the wavetable engine. I try to modulate the pitch with an envelope and the maximum amount displayed is +/-0.5. So the pitch is modulated a little bit, but not the amount I want,e.g.12 semitones.
In former times I programmed Reaktor (from NI) and based on that experience (with Reaktor) it seems that in Pigments some recalculation is wrong..... maybe the envelopes offer different amounts for modulations than the base oscillators do? Could that be?

I am using Windows 10 with Cubase 9.0.40.

You should be able to modulate the Course in the TUNE section up to +- 5 octaves from a 12 o'clock position, and the Fine tune +- 1 semitone. (This also means you can modulate more than 10 octaves.)
In example a +0.5 modulation on the Course when it's in 12 o'clock position should give a + 5 octaves modulation. Other pitch modulations can have an impact on the result, and so can sidechains.

Screenshots perhaps could help, if you keep having issues.

I'm also using Windows 10. I'm on version 1909.

Edit: I've just tried it in Cubase 10.5 LE and it work fine. I only tried it with the VST3 version.
I assume you have checked you have updated.

[alpha-w]

Yes, sorry, you are right! I assigned to the wrong knob   

Nevertheless it would be better, if the number of half tones would be displayed. 


But besides that: I love Pigments. Have a lot of VSTs, but Pigments is my absolute fav!

[Igro]

Just tried again, no it is not working. I'm referring to the Coarse in in the Tune area (most left window).
Once i turn off the granular engine, the modulation works as expected.

Added: modulation is not working when Dens and Density is set to zero.

[LBH]

Just tried again, no it is not working. I'm referring to the Coarse in in the Tune area (most left window).
Once i turn off the granular engine, the modulation works as expected.

Added: modulation is not working when Dens and Density is set to zero.

I believe it's in the granular synthesis nature, that you can't bend the pitch of a playing grain, if that's what you mean.
You can fire grains away that each have it's own pitch, so to speak.
So modulating the Tune sections Course does'nt change the pitch of playing grains, but only the pitch that new grains is fired away with.

The current amplitude at any time of a LFO will affect the pitch the grains is fired away with. The reset source and the phase setting of the LFO will thus also have an impact.

The envelope start at the value 0, so you will not have any effect on the first grain, when the envelope is triggered. But if you in example try to set a long attack, decay and release and the sustain in the middle and let it modulate the Course, then you will hear, that each next grain fired away will have another pitch in all stages except the ones that is fired away in the sustain phase, as they all will have the pitch set by the sustain modulation.
It can be argued, that if the attack of the envelope is 0, then the set pitch for the first grain should be max level/ modulation. I guess this affect all envelopes attacks modulations. However the smallest attack time is 0.1 ms, and i guess a envelope is closed untill opened so to speak.

Don't forget you have Functions you can use as envelopes, if you wan't to affect the pitch set for the first grain. There the initial level can be set like you wish.

[Igro]

Hi LBH,

I will explain, why i needed the granular engine at all.
I activated the granular engine JUST because I wanted to its built-in AMP envelope on a sample. Why i didn't use any other envelope in the ENV and Function? Because it is a "snappy" envelope (apart from the Main envelope, other envelopes are not snappy if assigned to various volume knobs, this was discussed in other threads and explanation for this was already given). I wanted to use ONLY the amp envelope from the granular engine, while settings the rest granular parameters to zero, so i could use the original sample intact.

But anyway, you seems like don't understand me. The coarse is the master pitch contol for the ocs generator and It SHOULD be able to be modulated. Because you CAN modulate it manually by twisting the coarse knob. If I can modulate it that way, why I can't do this with the one of the three envelopes in the modulation section? It just doesn't make sense. It is a bug.

I attached the preset. Just turn off and turn of the granular engine, so you can hear what I'm talking about.

[LBH]

Hi Igro,

I think you don't get my explanation. Please read it again.
Please note that i differ between bending the pitch and setting the pitch of a single grain.
There is also a difference in modulating the Coarse and bending the pitch in cases like this. You talk about bending the pitch. That's what you do, when you switch off the Granular section.

Your posted preset work just like i explained in my previous post.
The preset only use a single grain as it's a very short percussive sound with the Granular Density set to minimum speed so only one grain will be audioble. The grain is fired away with the pitch you set by modulating the Coarse with a Function. If you change the Course modulation amount for the used Function, then the pitch for the grain you fire away will change. So the Coarse is being modulated, just like i describbed. And there is no difference from when you do it manually.

Try this on your posted preset.
Set the VCA envelope sustain to max. Then play and hold a note untill the next grain is fired away. It take some time as your Granular Density is set to minimum. But when the next grain is fired away, then the pitch will be another than the first, as the function loop and is'nt retriggered as it will when you play another note. The pitch of the grain depend on the where the functions playhead is, when a grain is fired away.

EDIT: I can add this example: If you on your posted preset, set the Granular Density to 250 Hz/ max, and set the Limit of grains to 6 or what works best, and set the Size Time to 1000 ms/ max, then you will get the result that's closer to an actual pitchbend for the Granular section. But it's actually multiple grains that have different pitches caused by the Course modulation. EDIT END

EDIT2: To be clear.  I'm not sure, if it should be possible to bend/ modulate the pitch of each grain after it's fired away, like you want.  I don't think so, but i'm no expert in granular synthesis. That you can ask Arturia support about, if you wish. EDIT2 END

[Igro]

Hi LBH!

Sorry for the late reply.
Thank you for the explanation. So it is not really possible then. I was very happy at first to have this additional envelope in the granular engine. It does the job. But then, the coarse parameter became unusable. With this, please add and an additonal AD envelope within the sample engine, so that we could bypass the Granular engine. Pleaaaase...    This way we could easily create any type of claps, rimshots, snares and etc (most of them may need pitch envelopes).