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Harware Legacy versions => Analog Factory => Analog Factory Technical Issues => Topic started by: deerwolf on March 23, 2010, 07:45:57 pm

Title: Analog Factory 2.5 repeatedly crashing Live 8.1.1
Post by: deerwolf on March 23, 2010, 07:45:57 pm

The crash report is partly pasted below. Note - when live tries to recover crashed session the recovery fails as well.

Thanks.

Process:         Live [456]
Path:            /Applications/Live 8.1.1 OS X/Live.app/Contents/MacOS/Live
Identifier:      com.ableton.live
Version:         8.1.1 (8.1.1)
Code Type:       X86 (Native)
Parent Process:  launchd [93]

Date/Time:       2010-03-23 12:05:33.348 -0700
OS Version:      Mac OS X 10.6.2 (10C540)
Report Version:  6

Interval Since Last Report:          182870 sec
Crashes Since Last Report:           2
Per-App Interval Since Last Report:  69581 sec
Per-App Crashes Since Last Report:   2
Anonymous UUID:                      30481D2D-5AE8-484B-A975-C94DDEBC4DCA

Exception Type:  EXC_BAD_ACCESS (SIGSEGV)
Exception Codes: KERN_INVALID_ADDRESS at 0x00000000fa9ce9c9
Crashed Thread:  0  Dispatch queue: com.apple.main-thread

Thread 0 Crashed:  Dispatch queue: com.apple.main-thread
0   ???                              0xfa9ce9c9 0 + 4204587465
1   ...ria.analogfactory.component   0x31f5ae4a juce_AnalogFactory::Button::updateState(juce_AnalogFactory::MouseEvent const*) + 246
2   ...ria.analogfactory.component   0x31f5b02a juce_AnalogFactory::Button::mouseExit(juce_AnalogFactory::MouseEvent const&) + 24
3   ...ria.analogfactory.component   0x31f83963 juce_AnalogFactory::Component::internalMouseExit(int, int, long long) + 379
4   ...ria.analogfactory.component   0x31fb523f juce_AnalogFactory::ComponentPeer::handleMouseMove(int, int, long long) + 271
5   ...ria.analogfactory.component   0x320884b3 juce_AnalogFactory::HIViewComponentPeer::handleMouseEvent(OpaqueEventHandlerCallRef*, OpaqueEventRef*) + 287
6   ...ria.analogfactory.component   0x32088df2 juce_AnalogFactory::HIViewComponentPeer::handleWindowEventForPeer(OpaqueEventHandlerCallRef*, OpaqueEventRef*) + 250
7   ...ria.analogfactory.component   0x32088e99 juce_AnalogFactory::HIViewComponentPeer::handleWindowEvent(OpaqueEventHandlerCallRef*, OpaqueEventRef*, void*) + 61
8   com.apple.HIToolbox              0x9827ee29 DispatchEventToHandlers(EventTargetRec*, OpaqueEventRef*, HandlerCallRec*) + 1567
9   com.apple.HIToolbox              0x9827e0f0 SendEventToEventTargetInternal(OpaqueEventRef*, OpaqueEventTargetRef*, HandlerCallRec*) + 411
10  com.apple.HIToolbox              0x982a0981 SendEventToEventTarget + 52
11  com.apple.HIToolbox              0x982b2457 ToolboxEventDispatcherHandler(OpaqueEventHandlerCallRef*, OpaqueEventRef*, void*) + 1257
12  com.apple.HIToolbox              0x9827f27a DispatchEventToHandlers(EventTargetRec*, OpaqueEventRef*, HandlerCallRec*) + 2672
13  com.apple.HIToolbox              0x9827e0f0 SendEventToEventTargetInternal(OpaqueEventRef*, OpaqueEventTargetRef*, HandlerCallRec*) + 411
14  com.apple.HIToolbox              0x982a0981 SendEventToEventTarget + 52
15  com.apple.AppKit                 0x957abb7b -[NSCarbonWindow sendEvent:] + 151
16  com.apple.AppKit                 0x9550bb2f -[NSApplication sendEvent:] + 6431
17  com.ableton.live                 0x01466816 AWindow::~AWindow() + 63276
18  com.apple.AppKit                 0x9549f4ff -[NSApplication run] + 917
19  com.ableton.live                 0x01461296 AWindow::~AWindow() + 41388
20  com.ableton.live                 0x0145373f AFont::~AFont() + 7743
21  com.ableton.live                 0x00002d82 0x1000 + 7554
22  com.ableton.live                 0x00002ca9 0x1000 + 7337

Thread 1:  Dispatch queue: com.apple.libdispatch-manager
0   libSystem.B.dylib                0x951020ea kevent + 10
1   libSystem.B.dylib                0x95102804 _dispatch_mgr_invoke + 215
2   libSystem.B.dylib                0x95101cc3 _dispatch_queue_invoke + 163
3   libSystem.B.dylib                0x95101a68 _dispatch_worker_thread2 + 234
4   libSystem.B.dylib                0x951014f1 _pthread_wqthread + 390
5   libSystem.B.dylib                0x95101336 start_wqthread + 30

Thread 2:
0   libSystem.B.dylib                0x950db916 semaphore_wait_trap + 10
1   com.ableton.live                 0x003996a4 OStopRenderEvent::~OStopRenderEvent() + 77486
2   com.ableton.live                 0x0043719f TUri::CompareString() const + 5913
3   com.ableton.live                 0x004371c3 TUri::CompareString() const + 5949
4   com.ableton.live                 0x003989d5 OStopRenderEvent::~OStopRenderEvent() + 74207
5   libSystem.B.dylib                0x95108fbd _pthread_start + 345
6   libSystem.B.dylib                0x95108e42 thread_start + 34

Thread 3:
0   libSystem.B.dylib                0x950db8da mach_msg_trap + 10
1   libSystem.B.dylib                0x950dc047 mach_msg + 68
2   com.apple.audio.midi.CoreMIDI    0x02954f31 XServerMachPort::ReceiveMessage(int&, void*, int&) + 155
3   com.apple.audio.midi.CoreMIDI    0x029738fe MIDIProcess::RunMIDIInThread() + 150
4   com.apple.audio.midi.CoreMIDI    0x02956149 XThread::RunHelper(void*) + 17
5   com.apple.audio.midi.CoreMIDI    0x02955b16 CAPThread::Entry(CAPThread*) + 96
6   libSystem.B.dylib                0x95108fbd _pthread_start + 345
7   libSystem.B.dylib                0x95108e42 thread_start + 34

Thread 4:
0   libSystem.B.dylib                0x950db916 semaphore_wait_trap + 10
1   com.ableton.live                 0x003996a4 OStopRenderEvent::~OStopRenderEvent() + 77486
2   com.ableton.live                 0x00039deb OCallProcessor::~OCallProcessor() + 13125
3   com.ableton.live                 0x003989d5 OStopRenderEvent::~OStopRenderEvent() + 74207
4   libSystem.B.dylib                0x95108fbd _pthread_start + 345
5   libSystem.B.dylib                0x95108e42 thread_start + 34

Thread 5:
0   libSystem.B.dylib                0x950db916 semaphore_wait_trap + 10
1   com.ableton.live                 0x003996a4 OStopRenderEvent::~OStopRenderEvent() + 77486
2   com.ableton.live                 0x00318685 OMessage& OMessage::operator>><float, 1ul>(OSharedPtrImpl<float, 1ul>&) + 39671
3   com.ableton.live                 0x003989d5 OStopRenderEvent::~OStopRenderEvent() + 74207
4   libSystem.B.dylib                0x95108fbd _pthread_start + 345
5   libSystem.B.dylib                0x95108e42 thread_start + 34

Thread 6:
0   libSystem.B.dylib                0x950db8da mach_msg_trap + 10
1   libSystem.B.dylib                0x950dc047 mach_msg + 68
2   com.apple.CoreFoundation         0x989df77f __CFRunLoopRun + 2079
3   com.apple.CoreFoundation         0x989de864 CFRunLoopRunSpecific + 452
4   com.apple.CoreFoundation         0x989e47a4 CFRunLoopRun + 84
5   com.apple.DVCPROHDMuxer          0x1bd360fb AVS::DestroyAVCDeviceController(AVS::AVCDeviceController*) + 297
6   libSystem.B.dylib                0x95108fbd _pthread_start + 345
7   libSystem.B.dylib                0x95108e42 thread_start + 34

Thread 7:
0   libSystem.B.dylib                0x950db8da mach_msg_trap + 10
1   libSystem.B.dylib                0x950dc047 mach_msg + 68
2   com.apple.CoreFoundation         0x989df77f __CFRunLoopRun + 2079
3   com.apple.CoreFoundation         0x989de864 CFRunLoopRunSpecific + 452
4   com.apple.CoreFoundation         0x989de691 CFRunLoopRunInMode + 97
5   com.apple.audio.CoreAudio        0x93c9aef4 HALRunLoop::OwnThread(void*) + 162
6   com.apple.audio.CoreAudio        0x93c86a42 CAPThread::Entry(CAPThread*) + 140
7   libSystem.B.dylib                0x95108fbd _pthread_start + 345
8   libSystem.B.dylib                0x95108e42 thread_start + 34

Thread 8:
0   libSystem.B.dylib                0x950db9ee mach_wait_until + 10
1   ...ple.CoreServices.CarbonCore   0x96bb8034 MPDelayUntil + 43
2   ...ple.CoreServices.CarbonCore   0x96bc7a56 Delay + 107
3   ...opellerheads.rewire.library   0x1c10c7e8 RWPUnregisterDeviceImp + 21574
4   ...opellerheads.rewire.library   0x1c127a5c RWPUnregisterDeviceImp + 132794
5   libSystem.B.dylib                0x95108fbd _pthread_start + 345
6   libSystem.B.dylib                0x95108e42 thread_start + 34

Thread 9:
0   libSystem.B.dylib                0x950db93a semaphore_timedwait_signal_trap + 10
1   libSystem.B.dylib                0x95109445 _pthread_cond_wait + 1066
2   libSystem.B.dylib                0x95138028 pthread_cond_timedwait_relative_np + 47
3   com.apple.audio.CoreAudio        0x93c86965 CAGuard::WaitFor(unsigned long long) + 219
4   com.apple.audio.CoreAudio        0x93c89997 CAGuard::WaitUntil(unsigned long long) + 289
5   com.apple.audio.CoreAudio        0x93c87294 HP_IOThread::WorkLoop() + 1892
6   com.apple.audio.CoreAudio        0x93c86b2b HP_IOThread::ThreadEntry(HP_IOThread*) + 17
7   com.apple.audio.CoreAudio        0x93c86a42 CAPThread::Entry(CAPThread*) + 140
8   libSystem.B.dylib                0x95108fbd _pthread_start + 345
9   libSystem.B.dylib                0x95108e42 thread_start + 34

Thread 10:
0   libSystem.B.dylib                0x950db93a semaphore_timedwait_signal_trap + 10
1   libSystem.B.dylib                0x95109445 _pthread_cond_wait + 1066
2   libSystem.B.dylib                0x95152710 pthread_cond_timedwait + 47
3   com.ikmultimedia.amplitube2      0x2777d240 boost::detail::condition_impl::do_timed_wait(boost::xtime const&, _opaque_pthread_mutex_t*) + 114
4   com.ikmultimedia.amplitube2      0x2772a9b6 boost::thread::sleep(boost::xtime const&) + 134
5   com.ikmultimedia.amplitube2      0x277121bf TiXmlText::Parse(char const*, TiXmlParsingData*, TiXmlEncoding) + 15977
6   com.ikmultimedia.amplitube2      0x2772b1fa boost::thread_group::create_thread(boost::function0<void, std::allocator<boost::function_base> > const&) + 232
7   libSystem.B.dylib                0x95108fbd _pthread_start + 345
8   libSystem.B.dylib                0x95108e42 thread_start + 34

Thread 11:
0   libSystem.B.dylib                0x950db93a semaphore_timedwait_signal_trap + 10
1   libSystem.B.dylib                0x95109445 _pthread_cond_wait + 1066
2   libSystem.B.dylib                0x95152710 pthread_cond_timedwait + 47
3   com.ikmultimedia.ampegsvx        0x310928f8 boost::detail::condition_impl::do_timed_wait(boost::xtime const&, _opaque_pthread_mutex_t*) + 114
4   com.ikmultimedia.ampegsvx        0x3103b55e boost::thread::sleep(boost::xtime const&) + 134
5   com.ikmultimedia.ampegsvx        0x3101672b TiXmlText::Parse(char const*, TiXmlParsingData*, TiXmlEncoding) + 10101
6   com.ikmultimedia.ampegsvx        0x3103bda2 boost::thread_group::create_thread(boost::function0<void, std::allocator<boost::function_base> > const&) + 232
7   libSystem.B.dylib                0x95108fbd _pthread_start + 345
8   libSystem.B.dylib                0x95108e42 thread_start + 34

Thread 12:
0   libSystem.B.dylib                0x950db93a semaphore_timedwait_signal_trap + 10
1   libSystem.B.dylib                0x95109445 _pthread_cond_wait + 1066
2   libSystem.B.dylib                0x95138028 pthread_cond_timedwait_relative_np + 47
3   ...ria.analogfactory.component   0x31ef1f82 juce_AnalogFactory::WaitableEvent::wait(int) const + 140
4   ...ria.analogfactory.component   0x3200832b juce_AnalogFactory::Thread::wait(int) const + 27
5   ...ria.analogfactory.component   0x32099b8d juce_AnalogFactory::InternalTimerThread::run() + 233
6   ...ria.analogfactory.component   0x320083cf juce_AnalogFactory::Thread::threadEntryPoint(juce_AnalogFactory::Thread*) + 135
7   ...ria.analogfactory.component   0x31ef6885 juce_AnalogFactory::threadEntryProc(void*) + 17
8   libSystem.B.dylib                0x95108fbd _pthread_start + 345
9   libSystem.B.dylib                0x95108e42 thread_start + 34

Thread 13:
0   libSystem.B.dylib                0x950db93a semaphore_timedwait_signal_trap + 10
1   libSystem.B.dylib                0x95109445 _pthread_cond_wait + 1066
2   libSystem.B.dylib                0x95138028 pthread_cond_timedwait_relative_np + 47
3   ...rturia.jupiter8.lightplugin   0x37c9d688 juce_Jupiter8VLight::WaitableEvent::wait(int) const + 140
4   ...rturia.jupiter8.lightplugin   0x37c82d31 juce_Jupiter8VLight::Thread::wait(int) const + 27
5   ...rturia.jupiter8.lightplugin   0x37dd151a juce_Jupiter8VLight::InternalTimerThread::run() + 226
6   ...rturia.jupiter8.lightplugin   0x37c82dfd juce_Jupiter8VLight::Thread::threadEntryPoint(juce_Jupiter8VLight::Thread*) + 135
7   ...rturia.jupiter8.lightplugin   0x37c9d75b juce_Jupiter8VLight::threadEntryProc(void*) + 17
8   libSystem.B.dylib                0x95108fbd _pthread_start + 345
9   libSystem.B.dylib                0x95108e42 thread_start + 34

Thread 14:
0   libSystem.B.dylib                0x950db9ee mach_wait_until + 10
1   libSystem.B.dylib                0x951639e5 nanosleep + 345
2   libSystem.B.dylib                0x95163886 usleep + 61
3   ...nth 4.MusicDevice.component   0x4b150c75 NI::GP::HThread::sleepCurrentThread(int) + 21
4   ...nth 4.MusicDevice.component   0x4af06f82 ProgramChangeThread::run() + 34
5   ...nth 4.MusicDevice.component   0x4b150e37 NI::GP::Thread::execute(void*) + 71
6   libSystem.B.dylib                0x95108fbd _pthread_start + 345
7   libSystem.B.dylib                0x95108e42 thread_start + 34

Thread 15:
0   libSystem.B.dylib                0x950db9ee mach_wait_until + 10
1   libSystem.B.dylib                0x951639e5 nanosleep + 345
2   libSystem.B.dylib                0x95163886 usleep + 61
3   ...nth 4.MusicDevice.component   0x4b150c75 NI::GP::HThread::sleepCurrentThread(int) + 21
4   ...nth 4.MusicDevice.component   0x4af06f82 ProgramChangeThread::run() + 34
5   ...nth 4.MusicDevice.component   0x4b150e37 NI::GP::Thread::execute(void*) + 71
6   libSystem.B.dylib                0x95108fbd _pthread_start + 345
7   libSystem.B.dylib                0x95108e42 thread_start + 34

Thread 16:
0   libSystem.B.dylib                0x950db92e semaphore_timedwait_trap + 10
1   Maschine.MusicDevice.component   0x4e76f68f NI::GP::HEvent::wait(int) + 79
2   Maschine.MusicDevice.component   0x4fb0a555 NI::GB::Prehear::WorkThread::run() + 69
3   Maschine.MusicDevice.component   0x4e775a38 NI::GP::Thread::execute(void*) + 72
4   libSystem.B.dylib                0x95108fbd _pthread_start + 345
5   libSystem.B.dylib                0x95108e42 thread_start + 34

Thread 17:
0   libSystem.B.dylib                0x950db916 semaphore_wait_trap + 10
1   Maschine.MusicDevice.component   0x4f168448 BEngine::SetEngineParThreadProc() + 56
2   Maschine.MusicDevice.component   0x4e775a38 NI::GP::Thread::execute(void*) + 72
3   libSystem.B.dylib                0x95108fbd _pthread_start + 345
4   libSystem.B.dylib                0x95108e42 thread_start + 34

Thread 18:
0   libSystem.B.dylib                0x950db916 semaphore_wait_trap + 10
1   Maschine.MusicDevice.component   0x4f1e52df BStreamingEngine::run() + 543
2   Maschine.MusicDevice.component   0x4e775a38 NI::GP::Thread::execute(void*) + 72
3   libSystem.B.dylib                0x95108fbd _pthread_start + 345
4   libSystem.B.dylib                0x95108e42 thread_start + 34

Thread 19:
0   libSystem.B.dylib                0x950db8da mach_msg_trap + 10
1   libSystem.B.dylib                0x950dc047 mach_msg + 68
2   com.apple.CoreFoundation         0x989df77f __CFRunLoopRun + 2079
3   com.apple.CoreFoundation         0x989de864 CFRunLoopRunSpecific + 452
4   com.apple.CoreFoundation         0x989e47a4 CFRunLoopRun + 84
5   Maschine.MusicDevice.component   0x4e775a38 NI::GP::Thread::execute(void*) + 72
6   libSystem.B.dylib                0x95108fbd _pthread_start + 345
7   libSystem.B.dylib                0x95108e42 thread_start + 34

Thread 20:
0   libSystem.B.dylib                0x950db92e semaphore_timedwait_trap + 10
1   Maschine.MusicDevice.component   0x4e76f68f NI::GP::HEvent::wait(int) + 79
2   Maschine.MusicDevice.component   0x4f732316 NI::GB::HW::Interface::ControlThread::run() + 150
3   Maschine.MusicDevice.component   0x4e775a38 NI::GP::Thread::execute(void*) + 72
4   libSystem.B.dylib                0x95108fbd _pthread_start + 345
5   libSystem.B.dylib                0x95108e42 thread_start + 34

Thread 21:
0   libSystem.B.dylib                0x950db93a semaphore_timedwait_signal_trap + 10
1   libSystem.B.dylib                0x95109445 _pthread_cond_wait + 1066
2   libSystem.B.dylib                0x95152710 pthread_cond_timedwait + 47
3   com.ikmultimedia.amplitube2      0x2777d240 boost::detail::condition_impl::do_timed_wait(boost::xtime const&, _opaque_pthread_mutex_t*) + 114
4   com.ikmultimedia.amplitube2      0x2772a9b6 boost::thread::sleep(boost::xtime const&) + 134
5   com.ikmultimedia.amplitube2      0x277121bf TiXmlText::Parse(char const*, TiXmlParsingData*, TiXmlEncoding) + 15977
6   com.ikmultimedia.amplitube2      0x2772b1fa boost::thread_group::create_thread(boost::function0<void, std::allocator<boost::function_base> > const&) + 232
7   libSystem.B.dylib                0x95108fbd _pthread_start + 345
8   libSystem.B.dylib                0x95108e42 thread_start + 34

Thread 22:
0   libSystem.B.dylib                0x950db9ee mach_wait_until + 10
1   libSystem.B.dylib                0x951639e5 nanosleep + 345
2   libSystem.B.dylib                0x95163886 usleep + 61
3   ...nth 4.MusicDevice.component   0x4b150c75 NI::GP::HThread::sleepCurrentThread(int) + 21
4   ...nth 4.MusicDevice.component   0x4b15e923 NI::SND::PresetManagerDB::scanForBackground(CppSQLite3DB&) + 675
5   ...nth 4.MusicDevice.component   0x4b16286f NI::SND::PresetManagerDB::run() + 335
6   ...nth 4.MusicDevice.component   0x4b150e37 NI::GP::Thread::execute(void*) + 71
7   libSystem.B.dylib                0x95108fbd _pthread_start + 345
8   libSystem.B.dylib                0x95108e42 thread_start + 34

Thread 23:
0   libSystem.B.dylib                0x950db9ee mach_wait_until + 10
1   libSystem.B.dylib                0x951639e5 nanosleep + 345
2   libSystem.B.dylib                0x95163886 usleep + 61
3   ...nth 4.MusicDevice.component   0x4b150c75 NI::GP::HThread::sleepCurrentThread(int) + 21
4   ...nth 4.MusicDevice.component   0x4b15e923 NI::SND::PresetManagerDB::scanForBackground(CppSQLite3DB&) + 675
5   ...nth 4.MusicDevice.component   0x4b16286f NI::SND::PresetManagerDB::run() + 335
6   ...nth 4.MusicDevice.component   0x4b150e37 NI::GP::Thread::execute(void*) + 71
7   libSystem.B.dylib                0x95108fbd _pthread_start + 345
8   libSystem.B.dylib                0x95108e42 thread_start + 34

Thread 0 crashed with X86 Thread State (32-bit):
  eax: 0x0039eb38  ebx: 0x31fb513e  ecx: 0x6a46a5a0  edx: 0x6cf8ff84
  edi: 0x6a46a630  esi: 0x00000000  ebp: 0xbfffec48  esp: 0xbfffec0c
   ss: 0x0000001f  efl: 0x00010206  eip: 0xfa9ce9c9   cs: 0x00000017
   ds: 0x0000001f   es: 0x0000001f   fs: 0x00000000   gs: 0x00000037
  cr2: 0xfa9ce9c9

Title: Re: Analog Factory 2.5 repeatedly crashing Live 8.1.1
Post by: deerwolf on March 30, 2010, 05:58:28 am

Still no reply. I am crashing Ableton left and right. I am so sick of this ^#*$, so many bugs overlooked. 2.5 is a bad beta as far as I'm concerned (preset overwrite on install? no efx on J8 patches? who QAs this? the fact that the software doesn't run in Ableton?).

No one is going to use this software professionally no matter how good it sounds if it isn't stable, I just render out everything I can squelch from these instruments, I have zero faith in the software to recall or even load. I feel like I am using some janky cracked version but nope I own the thing (and Ableton along with all my other audio software) and everything is set up right.

Sorry for the rant but it's just so dissapointing for one of my best sounding instruments to be about as functional and fun as playing a 1950s Les Paul with a frayed cable through and amp with dirty pots and half alive tubes, when the sound comes through its glorious, but then it fizzles out and leaves you very frustrated.

Title: Re: Analog Factory 2.5 repeatedly crashing Live 8.1.1
Post by: FelixDomesticus on March 30, 2010, 11:08:50 am

Same crashes on Live 8.1.1 here, running on Mac OS X 10.6.2. Sadly I feel the same way about Arturia software, I had a similar crashing bug on Logic last year which was only fixed after 6 months. Great sounds but lousy QA and reliability, I too bounce out the Arturia recordings, as I can't rely on it.

I wouldn't expect a fast fix on this issue - unless the problem lies in Ableton. I can confirm 2.5 does work  in Logic 9 however.

Title: Re: Analog Factory 2.5 repeatedly crashing Live 8.1.1
Post by: V-Tek on March 30, 2010, 08:10:23 pm

I've always had problems with analog factory in one form or another great sound but just doesn't work right, however I can load it in Live 8.1.1 and it doesn't crash my problem with this new version is that it causes Lives cpu meter to jump from 4% to 485% just from pressing one note.

Title: Re: Analog Factory 2.5 repeatedly crashing Live 8.1.1
Post by: deerwolf on May 18, 2010, 07:53:23 pm

Yeah, miniMg patches still don't work in AF 2.5, also it crashes Live left and right. I've kinda gone back to Native Instruments synths for now because everytime I load an AF I have to do a save as and cross my fingers. I usually route the audio and capture to another channel along with the MIDI, to know I've got what I heard, in this way its like treating the instrument as true analog, an audio signal to capture. this method is a bit of a bummer obviously, but does have the upshoot that it makes e.g. the jupiter 8 demo "fully functional"  :)